The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
741

I have to say I still suspect Guile to be a candidate for top tier. He was already solid mid tier in ST and then HD Remix saw him get some major buffs and no nerfs. His roundhouse razor kick allows him to counter and punish a lot of things he couldn’t before (e.g. Fei Long’s third rekka punch, whiffed uppercuts, certain slides), and his overhead just makes him overall better than before. It’s a good long range poke that hits high, and it can be hard to counter even with the additional blue hit box it has.

Dee Jay is another potential top tier. His worst matches were Balrog, Dhalsim, and Vega - all of whom were nerfed in HD Remix. He is also just beefed up on the whole with his dread kick buffs. Basically he got no real nerfs, some good buffs, and most of the characters that gave him problems are weaker.

742

Switch Balrog for Honda, put Blanka higher, and I’d agree. I personally think Zangief is no longer low tier, but maybe that’s me. Also think Ryu is pretty close to top, if not top.

Fei and Cammy are still down there…

I can’t believe Ochio doesn’t have a whiff animation. Between jab headbutt being beefy as shit and negative edge stored ochio, he’s definitely top tier. Honda played right is barely under Akuma IMO. Not counting Akuma as a legit character, I think Honda is the best character in the game.

743

I main Blanka, and although he is improved I’m not too sure if he’s high tier. He still has big disadvantage match ups. Namely, Honda, Balrog, and Vega. I don’t think you can have very many difficult matchups and still be considered top tier. That’s the same reason I didn’t put Honda as top tier. Even though he is admittedly way better against fireball characters, and still dominates non-fireball characters.

I don’t see why I should lower Balrog. Who does Balrog really lose to? I mean who dominates him in a match? Not even Honda does, really. He just spams low strong the whole match and keeps his charge for his headbutt in case Honda tries anything silly. He is still a beast, and still has great match ups.

744

Hmm I really don’t feel Cammy is bottom of the bottom anymore, I think she inched ahead of Hawk and Fei since they feel even more nerfed and she is slightly buffed along with more minor nerfs.

Vega didn’t lose as much as Balrog I think you could switch those two.

I think that list has Ryu n’ Sagat a little too low and Guile a little too high.

Honda is still a huge question mark in my mind. I think a top Honda can prove him to be stupidly powerful still. He just has too many options against nearly everyone and only needs to guess right so few times. I also really think the new super does open up his game a lot but I can’t really be sure. So far he only has two losing match ups if you don’t count Akuma which are Ken and Guile, and really neither were unwinnable before while his good matches didn’t really suffer at all with the exception of Blanka. He could possibly switch places with Sim seeing how he runs that shit now.

745

my list in order

Broken:
Akuma

Top:
Dhalsim
Sagat
Honda
Dee Jay

High:
Blanka
T-Hawk
Zangief
Balrog

Mid:
Ken
Ryu
Guile
Chun Li
Bison
Vega

Low:
Fei Long ( maybe mid )
Cammy

746

Honda is just dumb with easy hands.

747

Honda is easily the best character in the game. Hundred hand slap nonsense, stored ochio, high priority headbutts that go through fireballs. Characters like Zangief and Cammy lose 9-1 against him. This match up is THAT bad.

748

You guys are nuts. Bison is not low or middle tier. He can kill anyone with a single combo. For that alone, he should be out of those tiers because of his ridiculous combo damage. Play Atonalism and tell me if you think he’s still low tier.

749

Vega is Low-Mid, Really? :confused: :lol:

750

Funny, I main blanka, and I wouldn’t call honda a big disadvantage matchup. In fact it’s borderline blanka’s favour.

Blanka’s bad matchups remain dj and balrog.

But yeah, Blanka still deserves low tier.

751

Perhaps you haven’t been playing the right people? Honda still dies a fiery death against really good zoning shoto/Guile/Chun. Sure he beats the shit out of a few people, but he did that already in ST anyway. He may move into the upper tier, but no way in HELL is he #1. Not even close.

752

I forgot DJ. Although Blanka has a lot of options against headbutt, it can be hard to jump in on him due to jab hb and it can be hard to tick throw him due to option select stored ochio. I will grant you that the match is far better than it was in ST though. He can’t be hit back with a headbutt after Blanka ball anymore, and you can hit Honda with a Blanka Ball after blocking both hits of his super.

Bison is always all over the place in the tiers. The SRK wiki places him high tier, Sirlin places him mid, and the Arcadia rankings says something different entirely. It’s hard to place him. And he still loses to Honda IMO. Not to mention a TOD combo doesn’t automatically make a character top tier. Just about all characters have them, although some are admittedly more practical than others.

Ryu is already high tier and I just don’t see him as top tier. I don’t really see how Sagat can be a dominating character anymore without his insane fireballs either. As for Guile, just look at Muteki or another top Guile in ST and realize he can still do all of that in addition to his overhead, better super, and a roundhouse flash kick that will have more of an impact than most people probably realize. (not to mention that Dhalsim doesn’t get a free c. jab under his booms anymore)

753

This is the post I made on page7 and other then switching blanka n geif for ryu n dj I stand by this list. Also gat and sim should be dropped into hightier because if there is anything we can all agree on by now it should be that akuma, balrog, and vega are the 3 best characters.

First off chun was never tops she was high at best. So please explain to me how you think she can be tops especially after losing neck breaker’s ability to crossup and having super damage considerably nerfed which was why she was hightier in the first place.

You’re basically saying overhead and new rh flash are so good they skyrocket guile to tops, and since this is your stance I’m curious to know specifically in what and which matchups do they improve him by so much? Because as helpful as they are I don’t see them being the sort of tools you could rely on consistently to win with let alone justify that he’s now tops because of. Better super is his best buff if anything that is what you could make an argument for him being tops but even that is not a consistent key to victory because you have to build meter up and get them to jump at you 2 things a smart opponent won’t let happen.

So you claim dj being potentially tops on the basis that the characters he’s worse against have been nerfed? Okay so what nerfs specifically did those characters get that improved the matchup for dj more then very slightly? What nerfs did the other characters that gave him problems get that improved the matchup for dj so much so as to make him a candidate for tops? because I’m not seeing it.

I’m not saying you’re opinion is flat out wrong but just curious as to why you think ryu is close to tops let alone tops? Fake fb is pretty good but it’s not THAT good.

Ochio not having a whiff animation is the only stupidly powerful thing about honda. Jab headbutt is not beefy as shit because it goes noticeably shorter it’s that much easier to bait and punish on recovery with so it’s just as much a nerf as it is a buff (pointed out by valle within a month of hd’s release.) In fact some of the more informed posters like jchensor and even some other honda users like renorob have questioned in what situation would using jab hb be preferable to any of his other options? On matchups alone you’re factually incorrect about honda being tops let alone being anywhere near the best character in the game.

Seriously whats with all this talk of honda being tops or the best or too good or whatever? Man up people it’s not that he’s that good it’s just that you don’t know hwo to beat him with whatever character you’re using so try something different because obviously what you’re doing isn’t working. Yes he has jab headbutt which helps a little bit, yes he has easier hands…otherwise NOTHING has changed about him to boost him half as much has most of you are saying, look at the matchups people damn.

LOL @ hustleman’s list:rofl:

Edit: Jin listing 1 top guile player is simply baseless. OMG RYU IS TOPS BECAUSE SHOOTINGD IS GOOD! I understand you were trying to illustrate an example, however it simply does not hold water because 1 player showing what a character is capable of is not the same thing as what the other 99% of people who use that character are able to do with him.

754

On Dictator’s match-ups: You’re spot on in terms of Honda. Chun’s not as bad of a match-up for Dictator as before, though it’s definately still in her favor, and the Blanka match-up is still very difficult (as you kept on reminding me over, and over, and over again last night; GGs, btw). Honestly though, Dictator is a tad bit random in that he has very few bad match-ups, but everyone else is either even, or just barely in either his or the opponent’s favor.

In regards to your tier list though, I’d like to think of Ken as the black-horse on your list, he seems to have the potential to hit High/A tier, and you might be over-shooting a bit on Chun, otherwise I agree on virtually every other placing.

755

so basically your current tier list looks like this

"grouped in no particular order:

top
boxer
claw
akuma

high
sagat
sim
dictator
dj
guile
ryu

mid
honda
chun
gief
ken
blanka
hawk

low
cammy
fei"

Best list I’ve seen so far, and I believe will look almost exactly like the “final” consensus tier list. Arguing for the particular order, on the other hand, will probably go on for ages.

756

broken

akuma

top
boxer
sim

high
chun
ryu
claw
dict
dj
sagat

mid
guile
honda
ken
blanka
hawk
gief

low
cammy
fei

in order

757

Here’s my current opinion of the tier list:

Top

Akuma
Dhalsim
Boxer

High

Claw
Ryu
Chun-Li
Dee Jay
Guile
Dic

?Sagat

Mid

Ken
Honda
Blanka

?Zangief
?Hawk

Low

Cammy
Fei-Long

Some thoughts

For top: Akuma is definitely better than everyone. Dhalsim got nerfed a bit, but he’s still really buff. Boxer, pshh. The only really bad nerf he got was the unfortunate glitch on his TAP. The hold range isn’t nerfed enough, given his walk speed, and the damage is reduced so infinitesimally that it doesn’t even matter. Boxer still rules.

For high:

I couldn’t think of where to put Claw between top or high, but I think he’s not quite as dominating as Sim and Boxer, so I put him at the top of 2nd tier. He’s still weaker, but the bottom line is that the wall dive still knocks you down if you’re airborne - in other words, if you fail your reversal attempt.

Ryu is Ryu. Chun is unarguably nerfed, but some top players put her at the top of their personal tier lists…I guess now her spot in 2nd tier is solidified, eh? Either way, it’s hard to say that she’s bad, even with all her nerfs.

I think people are really sleeping on Dee Jay and Guile, but especially Dee Jay. One of my biggest complaints in STHD is that a fair amount of characters saw their best tactics nerfed in exchange for ease of use. This happened to Dee Jay (who used to have two ToD combos and now has none), but he gained two very valuable things: A new dizzy combo which can be executed easily on the entire cast, and an easier Machine Gun Upper combo - a very big deal, as it still does a lot of damage, can be executed even if you don’t successfully cross your opponent up, and is safe on block. Beyond that, he’s always had a really solid game. I predict that Dee Jay is going to beast in this game.

Guile has had a lot of his matchups eased big time, and all of his new tools augment his game. Not sure what else to say.

Bison got just barely better. I can never decide if he’s high tier or mid, but I’m placing him in high just because of his outrageous comeback factor.

Sagat: Man, where do you place Sagat? He got a lot of cool stuff, but it doesn’t seem like you ever get to use it for anything. Mainly, his most dominant force - fireball keepaway - has been run through the wringer. Still, he doesn’t seem BAD, he just doesn’t seem like he has anything really devastating anymore. Anyone care to shed some light on this?

For mid:

Ken got a lot of cool stuff, as well as a few ‘ease of use’ buffs. His only nerf, the knee bash throw nerf, is also inconsequential. The range is still really good, and the throw damage nerf was so, so small that sometimes it still does the exact same amount of damage as it did in ST (it’s more like the ‘random factor’ allows it to potentially do less damage, rather than the actual damage is worse).

Honda, I think, remains the same, but got a little worse. He got ‘nerfs’ to make it easier to beat him using non-fireball characters, but they don’t help those characters much. If anything, I think those nerfs COUNTERACT the buffs he got for fireball characters. So, he’s not any easier for people who had a hard time against him, and not any harder for people who could beat him easily.

I was never sure why people rated Blanka so high on their day one tier lists. So his Blanka balls are safe now. So what? I’ve read from at least one Blanka player (nohoho - and someone correct me if I’m misremembering) that the new ranges on the Blanka balls make his trickster shenanigans even harder. I guess it’s nice that his Ball attacks are safer, but I don’t think that’s enough to really leap him from bottom to 2nd tier. His other changes are inconsequential.

Gief and Hawk: I also don’t know where to put these guys. I think a big part of it is that I STILL haven’t played anyone incredibly great with Gief online (well, I think I played ONE match against damdai when he used Gief, but whatevs). Hawk is a sufferer of “got worse, but easier to use” syndrome in the biggest way. It’s nice that he has good normals now, and it’s cool that he doesn’t have an unescapable throw loop, sure. But, why couldn’t he just have his new AND his old hawk dive? The old hawk dive was less safe on block, but the risk/reward was a lot better. Still, I don’t know if I would put either of them in bottom tier.

For bottom:

Cammy…I dunno. She didn’t get WORSE, per se…but I think her buffs didn’t really help her that much. Why do Cannon Drills require such precise spacing to be safe when you can do a dash punch with boxer from almost point blank and be safe on block? Why can’t the spin knuckle be…like, fast?

And Fei was the worst victim of the ‘strategy nerfs in exchange for ease of use’ approach to STHD changes. Sure, cool, rekkas go farther. What’s the best use of this? You can punish blocked Blanka balls. Yay. The actual truth is that you can’t generate as much space between you and your opponent with blocked Rekka strings as you could in ST, and if anyone wants to challenge me on this, be my guest. The chicken wing kick can go through fireballs, but if you use it to do that, your opponent will have recovered in time to walk up and sweep your ass. On top of that, it’s terribly unsafe.

Here’s a better idea for helping Fei: why not give him O.Fei jumping normals (look at O.Fei’s jumping hitboxes - they’re fucking sick), and give him back his old rekka distances and chicken wing cooldown time? Then, just reduce the damage on his rekkas, or do something to give the chicken wing more push back, like add an extra hit or something? At least then, the chicken wing will have more than simply situational use.

758

nohoho did say something like that somewhere on the forums. but he’s a hater.

all it really means is that the spacing at which you can use these tricks is DIFFERENT not HARDER.

lol. sirlin actually made the tricks BETTER, because all the balls have the same speed and animation (whereas in old school jab travels slower than strong and fierce).

however, because blanka balls are less punishable on block/hit, opponents are less likely to get mindfucked into trying to block them to get free punishes and thus more likely to react to the animation and try to beat it clean (with random low jabs etc.)

lol. changing the distance doesn’t make it harder. it just makes old setups fail i.e. grab meaty low fierce jab roll grab no longer works cause the jab ball won’t go far enough to grab after low fierce.

instead you actually get a grab jab roll rebite, or strong roll crossup, or dash/walk back strong ball grab or meaty low strong walk back strong ball bite. etc. etc. or low forward xx dash back jab ball/fierce ball hit/whiff grab mixup.

the tricks are still there, the spacing is just DIFFERENT. It’s not harder.

wtf.

759

I admit, I don’t know a lot about Blanka. I’d like to know what new, practical tricks he has as a result of these.

They couldn’t possibly have the same speed. There’s an easy way to test this: Do a jab ball, and then do a strong ball. They spend the exact same amount of time in the air, but the strong version goes farther. That’s pretty simple empirical evidence that they don’t travel the same speed. You can also look at the speed that the screen scrolls forward, and the jab version is very obviously slower.

The actuality is that they have the same animation, as you said, and the same sound effects. Still, it’s not really any harder to deal with it now than it was before. Also, you can always know if Blanka is trying a jab or strong ball, because the sound effects are twice as fast on a fierce ball.

So, sure. It’s a little more skewed, but all you really need to no is:

  • Did Blanka growl? /No: It is a jab or strong ball.
  • Is it a fierce ball? /No: Blanka is trying to bite you.

Doesn’t that contradict what you just said about the shenanigans being better? I guess, technically, the shenanigans are BETTER, but in a broader scope, the fact that they’d be used less often, as you said, makes them worse.

I’d like to know some good new setups.

Are these actually better than the old setups? I’d like to know how. Not being a dick, I’m just honestly not sure.

I still want to be convinced. Don’t wtf me. :stuck_out_tongue:

760

Skankin check my latest post in the sagat thread it’s my breakdown of his matchups maybe that will help you.

You must be crazy to say bison barely got better; HE HAS A REVERSAL, st jab is an awesome anti air and a great against torpedo moves, jump up jmp is very good, and even fake slide is cool. All those buffs combine don’t significantly improve his problem matchups but he’s definitely secured his place as high. I remember everyone here telling me how dic was always high tier but then when I ask for matchups, american tourney rankings, and why sirlin said he was always considered mid I got no reply lol.