This is so horribly inaccurate.
Well when making tiers I hope its with the interpritation that shoto’s know how to fight honda and honda knows what he can do vs shotos, so its implyed that the match isnt good for honda to begin with… in ST it was obvious what shoto’s can and cannot do, the illusion that jab headbutt can negate fireballs mean honda has a match is wrong… the mintue a fireball is destroyed all shoto+sagat can throw a fast fireball right away and hit honda off a recovery… now shoto’s would be foolish to throw a fireball at a range where honda’s jab headbutt could tick him but even so… why not do a buttslam u get better wakeup game than a jab headbutt…
its weird i know j.short supposedly got better priority but I have yet have it effective enought or have the confidence enough to throw it. Its very unreliable. I agree with the J.fp that does make his gave vs. shoto a lot more effective. Then again u weigh in what the shoto’s recieved. Fake fireball to mess w/ Honda’s jumping game… I agree with ken’s fireball being too slow and his fierce dp preventing honda from jumping up fp… akuma’s invincible dp and all around shoto trap… I still say the game is still very heavily Shoto’s favor and really havent budge.
Dont get me wrong I love those matches, and I still win 90% of my vs shoto matches I just dont feel it being any easier that I did in ST.
I agree thats ST strategy… cause sagat is in recovery of the tigers… but since now jab headbutt negates low tigers sagat instantly can throw another one and tick u before u recover. At least thats been my experience in this game.
Oh i totally disagree… I ask u to fight Jason Nelson’s Guile and tell me how much harder it is for Honda to win that match… gahhhh I hate it so much…
James you play with many top players, and ure have a mountain of knowledge but many of the opinions here who think honda is really overpowered I think is experiencing online hondas where the lag prevents players to react jump back mk or getting the free dp etc… and it makes Honda seem overpowering…
I’ve always thought Honda was good… hehe why else would I use him… (:annoy:
DONT U EVEN DARE ANSWER THAT JAMES!!!) but I dont think he’s as good as people here have made him out to be.
honda rapes claw for free. honda starts the match by doing nothing. the only thing claw can do is try to bait out some sort of headbutt that he can tag with a diagonal jump fierce, preferably the kind where claw is jumping AWAY from honda to do.
the beginning of one of the ass splashes is invincible if i recall correctly, so trying to meaty crossup dive at honda all day is the most pointless thing in the world. you might get like one until honda realizes that he rapes claw in that situation, sits on the gay spaniard’s face and shits all over him. the claw vs honda fight is fought at full screen with claw praying to all the gods in the universe that honda never ever gets a lead on him in life.
it’s not an easy 7-3 matchup for honda because it’s actually an annoying match to play. simply put, there’s just a lot of running away by claw and honda’s answer to claw’s running away is turtling. it’s a match of who is more patient and who is smarter, but for the most part the only person taking any risks in this match is claw – a good honda can play it safe all day.
Vega can walldive grab Honda out of all of his sumo splashes if timed right.
Dives no longer knock down. As for flip kicking headbutts, I’m not able to do it non-psychic online. I know it could be different offline though.
Even if true I personally consider this of dubious value; if Claw counters 50% of what Honda tries to do (flip kicking headbutts and psychic wall grabbing splashes, I guess) it would still seem to me a net negative because Claw takes more damage and also deals less. Unless the counter is actually predictable punishment - along the lines of flip kicking a jump in, for example - I don’t consider it to be that great of an option. Even if I get my response execution up to superior levels, I still feel like I’d be working harder with a lower margin of error than the other player. To me that’s the definition of an unbalanced matchup.
Don’t get me wrong, I know 6-4 or worse matchups are all over the place. I just think that having a theoretical and/or highly execution-dependent counter isn’t the same as straight up stuffing something to the point of near-automatic deterrence. I think Hondas default to constant headbutts and hands against Claw not just because it’s easy, but also because they aren’t given a good reason not to do it. That’s a reason that I disagree with RenoROB’s 5-5, although I’m sure I have less experience with the game that’s how it feels to me with 100% Claw in the middle tiers.
This makes zero sense. HHS can only be tripped if you do it at a range that doesn’t make sense and the easier activation more than makes up for it. In addition you’ve managed to turn two clear improvements in his game (super and jab headbutt) into complaints.
While jab headbutt can be baited if you try to go through a fireball at the wrong time in ST there is no right time because it doesn’t go through fireballs at all. And while you can DP his super on block it’s far far superior to his old version.
Complaining about baiting the jab headbutt makes no sense. If it bothers you so much just never use it when you expect a fireball, the choice is yours. Turning a clear advantage into a disadvantage through stupid play is your own fault, nobody is forcing you to do jab headbutts.
It’s like complaining that Vega getting a flip kick in ST is a nerf because you can empty-jump bait it and SPD it afterwards.
You know I hella disagree there:P How did they improve Honda? Bison is just dizzy and combo damage not actually a superior archetype.
Damn, I’m being drawn to talk SF? SRK is magnetic!
Apoc.
Vega can do a lot on opening and I don’t want to list them all. What can Honda do that can’t be punished? I can boot a headbutt in the face without having to jumpback ever.
Ask RenoRob. Vega can rush Honda down in ST and HD as far as I’ve seen. This view of the match is about a decade old and done. Honda is never safe once Vega walks because of his speed. I’d say the match is 50/50 at best for Honda now. I don’t see how Honda can get the lead for free or even turtle. Vega walks up and Honda has to do something just because Vega is walking. Honda has to perform a special or attempt a longer range throw or attack just because Vega is walking, otherwise he is thrown. Knowing this, Vega is prepared with his reaction because Honda can’t just sit there like some would like to think.
I’m not saying that old strategy isn’t solid but against someone who knows of it and has already developed the counter strategy it is near useless. Vega doesn’t have to hope to God that Honda doesn’t get ahead. Honda has to take a risk to get ahead and Vega is the fastest in the game. To me, it comes down to whether or not the Vega player is fast and can utilize Vega’s great speed. If he can, Vega can counter anything on reaction whereas Honda cannot even with quick reflexes. Honda is forced to move first, imo.
The future of old matches seems mighty interesting.
Apoc.
I disagree to some point. Honda can store Ochio still. Claw isn’t always going to get that throw just for walking. Although, I do agree that the threat of claw walking to you is very, very great and would force Honda to have to do -something- about it.
Also, I did not know that standing medium kick beat headbutts. If this is true then the match is nowhere as bad as I think it is.
me and Apoc has played this match 100x+ and i have tremendous respect to his vega as I’m sure he has with my honda…
Vega is dangerous because he’s fast, longer pokes, and he has a good anti-air and the crossup wall live. Yes you can avoid it but there is no direct counter to it unless ure in the corner. You can also place a well time jump back strong punch.
Now with wall jump fake, baiting a headbutt or buttslam for vega is too easy and that mean free counter vs honda. That matchup has never been and EASY win for Honda. Vs someone who doesnt know the match… Honda rapes Vega… bad timing wall dive, repeated slides, trying to just walk up to honda and throw etc… but for someone that know honda’s range and can bait honda to react… the game is very much a 5-5
margalis - hhs can be easily be tripped at honda’s max hhs range. HHS at max range is whats used to beat Gief, Hawk, put pressure on pretty much any character if u were at Evo Kusumondo used HHS max range pressure effectivly now its pointless because anyone can just sit there react to it w/ c.rhk and Honda is knocked down.
Just because honda’s super can now be used as an anti air doesnt make it far far superior. Its better than ST… maybe it has its plus and minuses. Characters that can counter Honda’s super still has their counter. Honda loses his insane multihit damage on advanced moving character (ie rogs rush attacks). So besides Anti-Air what else is this super useful? I wouldnt say its FAR FAR superior.
Your last point makes no sense. Jab headbutt addition on the developers side was suppose to make Honda deal with shotos, guile and sagats better than it did before. Its suppose to deal with players who cannot jump up air control FP. And that isnt the case. If honda could blow through fireballs and the opponent is stuck with the throw animation i would say it was useful. But since the second the fireball is eliminated they can throw another one makes that move pointless in high level matchup. You seem to think i have no clue how to use jab headbutt or that I’m missing something. If so explain and I’m more than willing to give new ideas a try. But from my experience the Jab headbutt which was suppose to deal w/ fireball characters have done nothing but cause honda more hurt than gain. Almost every situation where the jab headbutt canceling a fireball, there is a better, more effective, and safer option than jab headbutt. Thats my point. Saying that I have a choice is true, but why give him that option at all? I rather keep ochoi slam the same properties over jab headbutt, or have a controlable s.fp than that option. Players who’re just learning Honda will get the notion that jab headbutt is a good option in certain situation and will miss better opportunities. I post this because many have already pointed to his Jab headbutt as one of the reasons Honda has improved and I just disagree
I don’t see how fake wall dive would work well against Honda at all. If Honda sees a walldive coming, he’s gonna fuckin’ headbutt and the fake walldive means that Vega’s gonna land right on top of that Headbutt.
And I’ve always gotten wake up headbutted out of any walldive I attemped to do, even a crossup. As far as I can see, walldiving at Honda is asking to be punched in the mouth.
If they’re even able to have a headbutt charged when you wall dive, then you’re doing it wrong. How can you make it so that Honda can’t headbutt your wall dive? Many other players do it, so what might you not be doing?
The answer is, dive off of his side of the screen. Remember, you can dive off of either wall. If you dive off of his wall, his headbutt charge goes bye-bye. Try that and you may have different results.
Wouldn’t a good honda player be looking for this and do the cross over charge trick?
Umm…actually…yes, they would!!!
But what if you cross over them three times?! 
Okay…yeah…shouldn’t have posted that. My bad.
You can tag most fireball characters with it if you launch it shortly after they throw their fireball with no fear of reprisal (since if the super hits, it will juggle, taking away the ability to reversal it). That gets you 25-30% damage and a way in. Just having the super is great for mindgames because opponents will be even more weary about throwing fireballs until you launch it.
if Vega is flying to wall from midscreen then yes headbutt kills Vega for being stupid and trying to fly off from midscreen… Vega’s should only fly off his own side of the wall from his corner, something honda cannot counter in time. And once ure off the wall… if Honda is already in the middle of the headbutt just crossup splash him. If honda is waiting then it becomes a guessing game… A good Honda will be waiting for what Vega is going to do coming off the wall…if u dive crossup he cannot headbutt so his only option is buttslam and its only an escape tool that can be punshed when he lands.
uh… that option was there in ST too… it might not have the full screen range like it does now but why would Honda be full screen away vs shoto, unless he’s being ticked with fireball to death.
No it wasn’t. Not really. In vanilla ST, even if you connect with your first hit (when your opponent is grounded), you would almost always get reversaled on the next hit by good players, negating its usefullness.
Honda v Claw was basically even in ST, it was a retarded contest of who could do the least attacking and get away with it.
But now, because walldives don’t knock down, Claw can’t depend on one knockdown to lead to either more running or more damage, and that means the matchup is harder for him. The fake walldive is ok, but not that much of a help here. Honda already didn’t want to press headbutt or buttslam quickly l anyway, he wanted to wait until the walldive got close to him, so the fake dive’s shenanigans don’t really change anything. If Claw fakes a dive early, the fake isn’t going to work because he wasn’t at the range where Honda was gonna do a move anyway, and if he fakes a dive late, it’s gonna get hit by headbutt or buttslam. I also don’t think the fake dive is very useful for running away outside of some very specific and not very common situations; generally, jumping back with fierce or jumping on reaction or the other boring nonsense Claw players already did is still more effective.
Also, Honda’s super juggles better, does full damage, and lets Honda juggle with anything if it doesn’t go all the way through its animation, so that’s a buff to Honda, albeit not a big one in this matchup; the buffed super is useful in some situations, but really it’s just an even better reason why Claw shouldn’t be doing things he already shouldn’t have been doing. It’s also easier for Honda to chase Claw now, since doing fierce hands is so much easier and faster.
So, same matchup, but Claw got worse and Honda got a bit better. Slight advantage for Honda, in my opinion.
We’ve had a good chunk of time with the game. Anyone want to make any new projections on the tiers?
I feel pretty confident in the following list:
**
Broken:**
Akuma
Top:
Balrog
Vega
Dhalsim
Chun Li
High:
Guile
Honda
Dee Jay
Ryu
Mid
Sagat
Bison
Ken
Blanka
Low:
T-Hawk
Zangief
Fei Long
Cammy
^^Looks like the same old tier. I was hoping one of the low tiers would make it to top, or at least mid.