Guile doesn’t have to move forward to make things happen. Sagat has to move forward a lot more than Guile does. It’s not like this is O.Sag we’re talking about where he can camp and fireball spam safely.
I honestly do not believe that Sagat was tone down that much on the Low Tiger department to all of a sudden give Guile the edge, since we do not know the actual frame data of Sagat’s Low Tigers in ST:HD Remix ( I posted about this earlier already so I won’t go over it again).
However, since Sirlin says it’s more like Ryu’s Hadouken, let’s just “assume” it was 12-40 just like Ryu’s. That would only be a 1-frame differntial from his O. counterpart’s recovery which was 11 instead of 12, which although does make a slight difference, it’s not enough to say that Guile can start punishing Low Tigers on a greater scale.
Guile has to play smart, has to be patient, and he’s the one who has to anticipate and take the risk of getting in. Sagat only has to control spacing with his projectile, and not make it so blatantly obvious to punishment. The match up does become closer when the two are closer to one another due to the fact Guile has his pokes, knee bazooka and other attacks to get in.
However, if Guile messes up once and gets hit, or has to block a Low Tiger, he gets pushed back again, and basically has to start from square one again. Slight tone down, yes, but Sagat still has the advantage in that he controls spacing in this match up against Guile, and ultimately it’s Guile who has to take the risk of coming in, not Sagat.
Okay, sounds to me like its a few things:
1.) Sagat’s lower to the ground, giving him more time to recover.
2.) Sagat can use a high tiger shot to knock your ass down. If you don’t jump, nbd for him unless you jumped even earlier.
3.) Unlike the Ryu matchup where you can jump the odd fireball out, Sagat’s tiger shots are so fast that if you jump on from full screen with Guile, he can make you land on another one (I think).
Just because i hope you finally shut up about this, taken from sirlin’s site:
“Sagat now has fireball recovery that?s better than New Sagat and worse than Old Sagat. In ST, the difference in recovery times was about 12 frames between Old and New (huge), and Remixed Sagat?s recovery is about 4 frames worse than the terror that was Old Sagat. It?s still very good, but not as abuseable. It?s similar to Ryu?s fireball recovery.”
Also, as countless other people mentionned, his limbs extend further and are much easier to hit. Please stop now. Thank you.
Yes he does. You can anticipate a tiger shot and punish with sonic boom -> normal (will backfist even his sagat out of his low tiger stance?) or you can punish with a roundhouse flash kick to hit the limb and go over the fireball. But, both of these options require anticipation. And the flash kick will damn near get Guile killed if it is whiffed/blocked. And since Guile does not have Vega or Blanka’s jump, he has to anticipate to jump over a low tiger and make it in time to hit Sagat. All that stuff about trading projectiles requires anticipation. Sagat’s projectiles move too fast to do that on reaction, and still have time to walk up and hit him. Sure, if Guile anticipates correctly every time and Sagat never guesses right, Guile will kick his ass.
And yes, you’re pretty much alone on this one. Most people say Sagat beats Guile. Sagat controls the tempo, until the fight gets in throw range. Guile has to guess. Guess right, he makes it in. Guess wrong, PAIN.
Jumping up and air throwing whiffed tiger uppers isn’t a neat trick. Especially when you could just standing fierce, or flash kick, or get saucy and try for low strong xx flash kick. Sagat has a neat trick for when Guile whiffs a flash kick. Tiger Knee x 2. Now if you have a weird normal like croching strong that makes all of Sagat’s jump-ins whiff Guile, that would be a neat trick.
Emblemlord: I dunno man. It’s taken me a while to warm up to Sagat in this game. But damn, the lowest I ever thought of him was “high B Class.” This goes back to what I said a few pages back. Guile is very overrated these days.
Dude, that doesn’t make any sense here, because if that shit was added to his recovery, he would have the absolute WORST fireball recovery in the game over anyone else (15 frames, you kidding me?!). Also, I pointed out Sirlin’s post in that if it was similar to Ryu’s Hadouken as he stated, it would only be a change up of 11-37 to 12-40, which is not a huge drastic change, considering that would still make it better then anyone else’s projectile besides Gouki (I don’t know the frame data speed of Gouki so I’m assuming his projectile is now the best overall due to Sagat’s nerf).
Yes, his limbs where made more closer in resemblance to N. Sagat, however you act as if his Low Tigers have poor priority now :rolleyes:. Low Tigers would still be faster then everyone else’s with the exception of probably Ryu and Gouki…wow, so Sagat actually has to play with more intellect now instead of having a super god like zoning. His Low Tiger games are still beastly, and if I remember correctly, he’s still doing good even now competitively.
Why do Cammy and Feilong still suck? Years of play to get it right, and they’re still bottom tier.
To make us feel good when we win with them?
Dunno.
I still loves me some Cams though.
Despite what Sirlin might attest, I think Fei got the long end of the shaft.
I’d love for him him show us how Fei is at least mid-tier.
I’m not saying he’s wrong… I want to be proved wrong.
lol@ Cammy’s spinning backfist.
Yeah lemme go through Ryu’s fireball so he can sweep me when I use this useless ass move. lolz.
Spacing. :wgrin:
Yes. It’s Ryu’s spacing that allows him to rape this crap move for free. :wgrin:
Nah. I know what you mean, but overall this move seemed so much better at first glance but it doesn’t live up to your expectations.
IIRC the quest was to shorten the distance between tiers, not exactly change the tiers but make them able to compete at least.
Your using one example as to why Guile can get in easily on Sagat? What Kurahashi did up against Choi was great, however how many times can you name off the top of your head in which Guile gets to jump in like this all the time in comparison to where Guile has to sit back and wait out and slowly get in, while being pounded by a constant barrage of Tiger Shots. (No hate involved, but during 2000, Japan was simply better overall then we where at ST period).
During HF when Sagat’s Low Tigers where shanked just as they where here in HD, Jeff also mentioned that nobody’s Guile could get in on his Sagat unless his name was Tomo Ohira. However to remove away from all of that Guile cannot possibly hope to use “jump in” within this match up as much as you are staking the claim unless the Sagat player just simply plays poorly on his Low Tiger Shots.
I keep on reading that Guile can win this match up “if” he gets in and lands a big combo. However, up against a good Sagat player, this simply does not happen often, more often then not, you are blocking Tiger Shots, you find yourself jumping straight upwards to avoid chip damage, and after you land, you don’t have the initiative either. Many times you’ll jump forward, only to see a Tiger Uppercut in your face, putting you flat on your back, and basically starting all over again (Unless you anticipate and guess correctly that he is already committing to a Low Tiger).
Guile can flashkick over the Low Tigers, however unlike Balrog, to where boxer can rush in with much more effeciency, Guile does not have anything that gives him the same beneficial rushdown advantage that Rog can do after his headbutt.
Also after the flashkick Guile more then likely will have to end up blocking another Low Tiger pushing him back again, and the only time in which Guile can land the flash kick on Sagat is if he’s already close enough to do so after the low tiger shot, however even at that range, it’s quite dangerous to be using a flashkick. Not to mention a blocked Flashkick in HD means you get punished, where as back in the old days you could get away with that.
Jumping forward in general in SFII has always been dangerous, and in this case, it’s no different. Guile is not able to play his game as well as he likes too, because his SB’s simply cannot compete here against Low Tigers. He’s resorted to having to patiently move in, and take the high risk of jumping in, or else in many cases, hoping to get in with c.mk, knee bazooka’s at close range, if he stops a Low Tiger with his SB (Not to mention, Guile’s pokes like c.mk was nerfed from Super onward, so the range is nowhere near as good as it once was back in the CE/HF days as well).
I don’t see how this is an “advantage” to Guile, when Guile can’t play to the advantage of what makes him strong in the first place (meaning spacing well and zoning with powerful SB setups). This match up may not be as difficult as it once was in original ST, however it’s certainly didn’t all of a sudden go into the favor of Guile.
Exactly the problem, Sirlin should have fixed it so you can zone with it.
The difference is just 4 frames worse than Old Sagat. So 8 frames better than New Sagat.
I should have seen it sooner, but it is become apparent you’re trolling. No one could have believed ST Guile beats Sagat. Good work, ya got me. But man, you need more original material. Val Kilmer has a few good films and Top Gun references are played on SRK. If you wanted to be really witty and intelligent. You should have made the homo erotic joke and called me Iceman from “Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends” where Frank Welker does the voice of Icey. Yeah, that’s the same dude who did Fred in Scooby-Doo.
Ok cool beans.:wonder:
Heh, I hate that matchup with Gief. Hell, I hate Honda period unless I’m playing as him. Motherfucker is just mean unless you have a fireball.
I fucking hate Chun, Honda and Claw.
They are fucking easy mode I swear on my life.
i think the tiers look something like this:
akuma
honda
vega
boxer
ryu
chun
dj
sagat
blanka
dic
sim
ken
gief
thawk
cammy
fei
straight up in order.
but really we should be examining matchups, not the tiers, until an entire matchup chart is filled out.