I agree that Dhalsim probably isn’t tops anymore. Losing the easy mode noogie loop, and losing slide to super, while other characters gained tools, bumps him down a bit. Not that hes trash, hes just probably sitting outside of top tier range
Since ST is a matchup game and since i’m no way a ST expert, i’m just gonna list how some matchups have changed for the chars i play most (because fuck me if i knew anything about, say, gief vs dict).
Chun - Sagat:
I feel this is the biggest turnaround. It used to suck horribly, now it’s okay for the sole reason it’s easy to punish gat’s limbs when he tigershots when before you just plain cound’t do anything reliable, period. It’s gotten a little tougher up close but tiger knee can be thrown on recovery pretty often.
Chun - Claw:
It’s a little harder for chun. Mainly because of the air SBK. You get used to it VS other characters but the fear of the long range slide makes you hold DB. So when you try your instant jumping moves when you think he’ll go for the dive, you have charge and do the air SBK and loose. You really have to be careful about that. LLs still beat everything he does on the ground and j.lk etc take care of dives (range dependant of course etc, it’s not fullproof).
It’s a good thing for her that the dive doesn’t knock down because before, eating a dive could end the match. Yeah i know you could SBK out of there with some luck but bleh.
Chun - boxer.
I feel this is worse for boxer. Slightly but worse. It’s easier to throw him after he headbutts, especially with her fast walking speed so it’s risky for him. LLs being faster to do also don’t help him. The fact he doesn’t get full super after 3 seconds is also nice.
The rest of the matches aren’t that different imo. Maybe worse against ryu, i’ll see in time.
I was about to do a writeup but i’m getting lazy so i’ll finish it quickly.
Guile - vega still seems bad because i’ll be damned if i can RH flashkick slides on reaction.
Dhalsim i feel got decently easier just cause he can’t punch under booms for free, but the only good sim player i played alot is chrisfighter and he beats me with most chars anyway so it makes no difference.
Honda you have to turtle more smart but still beatable. Hawk looses badly, Ryu is for the most part the same match with a better super and the rest feel the same too. I need to love the RH flashkick more tho. It’s funny sometimes how you can sit on it, do it the instant you see your opponent sprite move, and hit. Yeah it can be baited i know.
For ryu i don’t feel much has changed, chars have been given tools to get past fireballs, but the fake fireball really helps baiting that stuff. Fake does give him a few nice blockstrings but he had good blockstrings before anyway, i dunno. Boxer is still painful, sim feels better.
Oh yeah, sagat is easier now. I don’t care if ryu can’t win a fireball war, it’s still better than being unable to keep up at all (and j.RH is a great TS punisher now). Other than that i’d be damned if i can find a matchup that changed noticeably. Maybe claw because dive doesn’t knock down and ryu doesn’t have a get out of jail free card against that like ken with fierce dp.
Yeah take that with a grain of salt, i’m not a top player or anything.
IMHO:
- Chun & Sagat are Boxer’s worst matchups.
- Deejay is defnitely mid to high-mid tier. He has no super-bad matchups, hough I do find him harder to win with vs. “skinny” characters that the cr.jab, cr.jab, st.strong XX rh sobat combo doesn’t work on.
- Zangief lower mid tier. The new headbutt and easier 360/720 are a huge plus but his lariats seem majorly nerfed compared to vanilla ST. Things that it used to beat 100% now stuff it clean (hurricane kicks, blanka balls, honda headbutts).
I was stuffing Honda headbutts on reaction with the lariat the other day. Just have to time it right.
Mind explaining how exactly? I must have tofu for brains today :shake:
Not true. Kick lariat now beats a lot more stuff than it didn’t in ST. Yea, it can still be beaten, but percentage wise it wins a lot more. 360 and super being easier really isn’t an issue since if you were a gief player before, you could do the moves on command when you needed to.
If I had to guess he probably holds DB and tries to time it so the lariat activates when Honda is right on top of him. If he succeeds he will probably trade or get a knock down. If he’s too slow then he’s just blocking.
Too true. That lariat has a smaller hit box in the leg area than the punch lariat.
Guile is 2 high on that list, he does not have the potential to be a top character.
So you’re playing shitty Sagats is what you are saying?
I used to be a gief player in ST so 360/720 was never a problem to begin with. The only MAJOR change for me in that department is the ability to do a standing “720” without having to tick off a st.short now.
Is it me or is gief-honda 10-0 honda?
What can gief do against…anything? At all?
I’m a noob gief and i have trouble even against scrubby hondas. For starters they whiff slaps a couple times and now have full meter, so i can’t jump anywhere on the screen. I can’t approach on the ground either. I just die. And in the rare instance that you score the corner knockdown, it’s not like sim where you’re “ha finally got you” and you tick him to death because honda has 40 ways to get out of everything for free.
I don’t think i’ve ever seen a worse matchup in any non retarded game. Is there something i’m missing?
What’s the matchup ratio between Ryu and Zangief suppose to be?
What about blanka vs honda match ratio, im having a really hard time against some honda players that just sit back.
My super awesome tier list
Tier 1:
Dhalsim
Balrog (Boxer)
Vega (Claw)
Chun Li
Tier 2:
Akuma
Ryu
Ken
Dee Jay
Tier 3:
Sagat
T.Hawk
M.Bison (Dictator)
E.Honda
Guile
Zangief
Tier 4:
Cammy
Fei Long
Tier >9000:
Blanka
The balance in this game is really good in my opinion. The tiers feel pretty compressed to me.
I think I’d need some explanation on some of that. Akuma second tier? Sagat Third? Blanka dead last? I mean, I’m not the sort to really criticize opinion, if you’ve got genuine reasons for that placement, more power to you, but I’m very curious to hear 'em.
he put blanka tier > 9000 (nappa joke, remember?)
i think maybe he meant top? lol.
6:4 Zangief IMO. Assuming both sides perfectly played, Zangief has a hell of a time getting in, but once he gets in Ryu will have trouble pushing him back out.
who doesnt have a hard time getting gief off them, other than honda?
i think ryu does decent at getting gief off him, better than a lot of characters. mixing up reversal dp and reversal HK can work wonders. HK reversal works really well, especially if you are cornered. and is generally more reliable than reversal dp.
I never though of a HK reversal, ever. To me, it never seemed like it had a fast enough startup or any invulnerable frames to be useful as a reversal.
When I’m Zangief I find shotos are a lot easier to keep the pressure on compared to the likes of Blanka, Chun Li, T.Hawk, Vega (claw) or Sagat. From my experience, Zangief is good vs. the most popular fireball cast at the casual level - the scores of Ryu, Ken & Guile encountered online (and at the arcades). His worst matchups (Akuma notwithstanding) is probably Honda and possibly Chun Li IMO.
BTW, how do most Gief players pick him up? I got started on Gief back in WW simply because nobody took him – I wanted to use the character(s) nobody else used at the arcades.
Your definition is wrong.
Top tier = the most favorable match-ups across the board.
It seems like the very best in this game only have about 2 or 3 losing match-ups. Those are the ones that should be top then you go down the line.
And why the hell would Guile counter Sagat?