T.Hawk has a better splash than Zangief IMO, mainly because T.Hawk can cross-up from further distances. Zangief has to be VERY close for a successful cross-up.
Yeah I’d have to say T Hawk is probably slightly better than Gief simply because he is more versatile. He has a DP, the Hawk Dive can punish fireballs when you anticipate them, and he has a really solid set of normals. Not to mention his super has a lot more range than Gief’s and he can land it/tick into it easier as a result. At the very least he is Gief’s equal.
Tier Table…
God Tier:
Akuma
Zangief (play haru)
Sagat
Bison (touch of death combo)
Balrog (mid screen head butt mix ups)
Mid Tier
Ryu
Ken (knee bash mixups)
Honda (his damage is stupid)
Dee jay
Blanka
Dhalsim
Low Tier
Guile (have to work hard to win against great players)
T hawk
Cammy
Vega
Fei long
Chun (not to sure about this 1. possibly middle tier)
people that know how to play, and have played against great players would understand this 
What? No way. Vega in the lowest? The hell? Chun in the lowest too? Whhhhhaaatttttt? Those are some pretty bold claims.
This tier table is wrong, and the basis on which you made it is fundamentally flawed. There are O. Hawk players in Japan that could school really good Dhalsims, but that doesn’t mean O. Hawk had an advantageous or even a fair match against him. A character’s tier status isn’t based on how a Daigo or Justin Wong plays them against scrubs. The litmus test you have to apply is how well a character does in comparison to the rest of the cast when the skill level of both players is mostly equal. The fact that you have Chun and Vega in the low tier speaks volumes on your knowledge of the game, and I can only assume you don’t know what they are capable of.
vega has the de-sync bug thats a fault… i havent played against any scary vegas yet, his wall dive no longer knocks down… i have played against japanese kamejin and his claw is nice… but i dont think its top tier, i have seen him beat haru’s gief (vega counters gief)
That still doesn’t mean anything. Is Ryu top tier just because Daigo does well with him? You seem to be basing this a little too much off your own personal play experience. Just because you haven’t played people who are good with certain characters doesn’t mean those characters aren’t actually good. Another problem I have with your list is with Guile’s ranking. Remember, Guile was middle tier in ST and all his bad matches except Blanka have been improved. In my personal opinion he is probably top tier, or at the very least at the top of 2nd tier.
While I’m posting I’ll take this opportunity to post a revised version of my list, and I think most people will probably agree with it to a large extent:
Tier 0
Akuma
Tier 1
Boxer
Claw
Dhalsim
Chun Li
Tier 1.5 (Potential tier 1 candidates)
Sagat
Guile
Honda
Tier 2
Blanka
Deejay
Dictator
Ryu
Ken
Thawk
Zangief
Tier 3
Cammy
Fei Long
[quote=“Higher-Jin, post:547, topic:50765”]
That still doesn’t mean anything. Is Ryu top tier just because Daigo does well with him? You seem to be basing this a little too much off your own personal play experience. Just because you haven’t played people who are good with certain characters doesn’t mean those characters aren’t actually good. Another problem I have with your list is with Guile’s ranking. Remember, Guile was middle tier in ST and all his bad matches except Blanka have been improved. In my personal opinion he is probably top tier, or at the very least at the top of 2nd tier.
IMHO, my ranking system is based on all the skillful players i have come across and most of their personal opinions on which character is easiest to win with.
Like take gief in my ranking system for example, barring vega he has a strong chance to win against anyone in the game, even akuma. (green hand thru air fb into SPD)
bah
ha
hahahahhahahahahaaha
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dhalsim is not top tier anymore. Deejay is superior to Honda and Guile and Sagat.
Putting Ken and Thawk in the same tier as Deejay and Dictator kind of invalidates the whole thing. Split that tier up - Deejay’s number of advantageous matchups puts him clearly in a class above Ken or Thawk.
the more i play honda, the more i tend to agree with ultradavid.
jumping hp and j.lk being able to do what its supposed to do vs shotos and fb characters helps a lot. the easy command for hhs is too good.
lp headbutt going thru fireballs is not that amazing as you have to psychic headbutt to go thru it. theres startup in the beginning where it gets stuffed by fireballs. its better than nothing i guess.
and he still have his stored ochio. dope 
Honda is incredible. I think you guys are forgetting the faggot can just build meter in the corner with jab hhs WHILE keeping charge for jab headbutt. Against people without fireballs there is very little they can do against that since he can stop HHS in time to jab headbutt anyone trying to jump in. Then when he’s done he has a 40% anti air he can unleash any time you’re feeling brave. This wasn’t a problem in ST cuz his super sucked, but now that it is really good I feel it may put him over the top. Not to mention that he can still do this against fireball characters (just has to time it so he can block repeated fireballs on time), and once he is charged up they have to think twice before throwing shit at him.
The reason I made Tier 2 so broad is because none of them really feel inadequate compared to one another. They all feel pretty equally viable to me. Originally I had a lower mid tier that consisted of Ken, Thawk, and Zangief, but it was so short and we know so little at this point of the game’s lifespan I thought it better just to include them in Tier 2. Also Dee Jay is not better than Honda, Guile, or Sagat. He didn’t really get all that much in the way of buffs. His dread kicks are the only real noticeable thing besides maybe being able to combo the MGU consistently. Guile got an insane flash kick, his bad matches disappeared, he can super any time he would normally flash kick, and he even has a new really good overhead. Put him in the hands of Muteki or another good Guile player and I predict Sirlin may have created a monster.
Also about Sim, I think people forget that he and Boxer are the only two characters that really were 100% considered top tier in every list. They lost relatively little, and Sim even gained a new tool against Vega. I don’t think we should be so quick to judge him as 2nd tier just because they nerfed his noogie loop. He can still do it, he just can’t do it without fear of counter throw. When you think about it that’s really the only nerf he got besides his jab not going under sonic boom and the teleport thing. That’s insane considering how good he is overall, and how much Balrog was nerfed (yet everyone is positive he’s still top tier). Sim’s keep away game is still as strong as ever and that was the real source of his strength.
Tier 1 basically includes everyone who was top tier in most ST rankings. I think we should assume them to be tops until proven otherwise. My projection for the next characters to be considered top tier still stand as being Honda, Guile, and Sagat. I already went into the reasons for Honda and Guile. If you really need me to explain Sagat then you need to play more people. He has high damage up close, a great keep away game, the most simple dizzy combo known to man (J. rh, c. mk, tiger shot), a TOD combo to follow up the dizzy, and at least 3 really reliable, damaging anti air options.
I don’t know this game very well, but I think that tier rankings are more than just a matter of what a character has individually lost and what they’ve gained. It’s all about their respective matchups against other characters, especially in a game like ST.
If we take a look at Dhalsim: Guile, Cammy, T. Hawk and E. Honda have improved considerably in their matchups versus Sim. M. Bison and Fei Long have also had minor but favorable changes here. Sim, while still being very good, hasn’t really improved in any 1-on-1 matchups. In fact, the nerf to his noogie-loop makes it harder to squeak one by against bad matchups or comeback situations. So, while he was top-tier in vanilla ST and hasn’t changed very much in STHD, the game changed around him and most likely enough to knock him out of the upper tier.
Like Bok says, and I agree, this is a game of matchups not a game of individual character abilities. The noogie loop does kind of screw him against Chun and Vega in a lot of ways, but more important are the changes to Honda, Guile, Cammy, Thawk, Zangief, Deejay, Ken, Ryu, and Blanka that worsened his matchup against those characters (however slightly, e.g. in the case of Deejay the MGU cancel fb improvement is minor but there - for escaping the jab yoga fire trap).
Sagat is great if people let you jump in to do dizzy combos, which doesn’t really happen except online against scrubs. He walks slow and his jump doesn’t go terribly far. Not exactly a dizzy machine. If you judge him by the relevant metrics - what he can realistically do against most of the cast - his keepaway game is going to be 90% of his character. Unfortunately, it is shitty now, with his arms sticking out so far, slower fireballs, and his terrible reversal. Ryu, Ken, Chun, Blanka, Guile, Honda and Deejay can be added to the list of characters that are close to going even with or beat him.
Combine that to his already bad matches against dhalsim, boxer, and claw, and I think you’ll find he kind of blows.
He looks super scary because he does tons of damage and has some new combos, but his zoning sucks and he’s big and slow and leaves his arms out forever.
Calling BS on this one. Who beat guile in vanilla? The top four all beat him (Sim, Rog, Sagat, Vega). Ryu and Chun beat him or at least it was even depending on who you ask. Blanka was iffy. Are you saying new flash kick makes him suddenly beat all of these characters? Vega is still going to beat Guile because all roundhouse flash kick did was make Vega’s slide go from “I can do this whenever I want” to “Ok, maybe I need to think slightly, before I do this.” Compare the risk to the reward, and it still favors Vega. Guile gained nothing at all to stop Vega from jumping a sonic boom on reaction and getting in on Guile as a result. Roundhouse flash kick makes this particular fight go from 7-3 (or worse) to only 6.5-3.5 or 6-4. And no, the wall dive nerf doesn’t matter. Wall dives were pointless against Guile anyway because flash kicks hit cross-ups and Vega dominates the ground.
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-guile.html
Read the bottom of that article. The section that says “Bad matchups mostly gone.”
Again you can make the argument for or against Sim, but I think he should be considered top ATM for the following two reasons
- He’s still an absolute bitch to get in on.
- A stated goal of Sirlin was to keep the tiers more or less where they were, and all he really wanted to do was compress them. Unless it becomes really obvious Sim is no longer tops, and by that I mean demonstrably obvious, I just don’t feel we should rush to judgment to knock him off the top of the list. At worst he’d be in Tier 1.5, and I think people who actually know what he’s still capable of wouldn’t write him off as eagerly as some of the people in this thread have.
I disagree. Even if you can’t land his dizzy combo he still has a 80% cross up combo that will be hard to block when Sagat gets a knock down. Cross up j. mk, c. mp, c. mk, rh tiger knee, tiger knee x N. You can even do the easy version of j. mk, s. mp, tiger knee, tiger knee and still get massive damage.
His zoning does not suck either. He has equal fireball recovery to Ryu, and his tiger knee can anti air people that are too far away to hit with tiger uppercut. Not to mention he still has his excellent pokes and can cover a lot of ground with his tiger knee.
Pokken…wtf@ Sagat sucks.
Sagat is still a solid character with the tools to do well in many match-ups.
LOL@his zoning sucks.
His fireball isn’t slower BTW. His recovery is simply longer. There is a difference. If you even attempt to engage Sagat in a fireball war and your name isn’t Akuma you will lose.
Fact.
Also his cross-up can be ducked by several characters which does suck and hurts his game. I think that’s enough to put him down to high tier. If it wasn’t for that he would be tops IMO. As it stands I see him as top of high tier.
No disrespect, but I have yet to fight a Sagat i couldn’t j.roundhouse when he tried to fireball me. I’m usually like yes i get to fight a sagat, win for me. Its when they come close and go for knees and tiger uppercut AAs that I can’t properly do anything to them.
^ This.
Sim’s noogie loop didn’t even matter that much. It was a nice tool, but ideally they should never get close enough for you to do it. You can still do a fierce throw after the noogie since the range on that didn’t change. The noogie loop just isn’t that big of deal. Like I said before, the changes to his super fuck with him more than the changes to the noogie.
The game just changed. That’s how I feel about a lot of characters who got stronger. It’s not that they got anything really buff, it’s that things about other characters changed that made them easier to fight. It’s like Dictator being considered top tier by some people at launch. Dict. wasn’t top by any stretch. He still has shitty defense. The thing is, most of the abusable shit that really messed him up was either toned down or removed. Couple that with a reversal, and it seems like a whole new ball game. That’s how I feel about most of the cast now. It’s not just changes to the character, but changes to all characters.
Tiers are still the same. Characters were just given new tools for problem areas in certain matches, you just have to counter differently.