I get tired of people saying so and so doesn’t scare me so they can’t be top tier.
I think it’s a matter of relativity. In ST some characters were just mindlessly broken like Claw and O.Sagat.
Now I think we need to get used to the fact that no one character will put the fear of God into you anymore. Cept Akuma. Fuck that guy.
But anyway, I think we need to just be more objective and start looking right at match-ups instead of saying so and so lost this but gained that. Who cares about that shit. What matters is the match-ups and those will decide the tiers.
I stand by my statement that Claw, Honda and Chun are the special olympics characters of ST. Losing to characters that are so easy to do well with makes Sim unable to be top tier, imho.
I got as good with Claw as I am with Dhalsim in a matter of days (compared to 9 months+ of solid Sim play). Maybe I amjust by nature shitty at the game, but I would bet money that is the same for everyone. Any top level player could learn to play Honda, Claw, or Chun on a level to be crazy dangerous in a matter of hours.
I’m going to say this “if” the 4 frames where set on the recovery of Sagat after releasing the projectile (In org. ST O. Sagat has a 11 frame recovery), that would mean that Sagat’s Tiger Shot’s would be 15 frames of recovery. Making it have the absolute worse fireball recovery out of any projectile character in HD:Remix, even Dhalsim would have a better fireball recovery then Sagat at 13 frames.
In fact, that would make Sagat’s recovery even more shitty then WW Ryu/Ken’s Hadouken recovery of 14 monstrous frames. So with a 15 frame recovery, even someone like Sim in ST could beat Sagat in a fireball fight, due to the fact that Sim would recover 2 frames quicker then Sagat, so eventually Sim would win out. This would also mean that ST. Ryu would now destroy Sagat in a Fireball fight, heck even N. Sagat from org. ST would beat out HD Sagat because he only had a 13 recovery frame as well. (Note: Frames I’m taking are from the SFII frame data)
Sirlin even made the notion stated within the update that the Tiger Shot rate was now closer in resemblance to Ryu’s Hadouken, in which Ryu’s Hadouken in ST happens to be 12-40 frames, so Sirlin stating he added 4 extra frames, would coincide more with what I stated earlier that Sagat’s Tiger Shot being 11-41.
Not only that but it also makes more since at 11-41 (meaning the 4 frames where added to slow down the speed of the projectile not when Sagat releases it and recovers), because in HD, Sagat’s Tiger Shots travel across the stage at a slower pace.
Yes, this does tone it down slightly, because the ability to get out of Low Tiger barrages is more open to the opponent simply because they aren’t flying across the screen at lightning speed. This gives way to players being more able to punish Sagat accordingly, however Sagat’s recovery after releasing the Tiger shots is not compensated for the this, so he can still punish accordingly. That’s why you see a difference when you are fighting HD Sagat. This not a huge tone down, because the Low Tigers are still strong, just not retarded borderline stupid.
Lastly, I don’t believe Sagat’s arm’s extend further, Sirlin made sure to keep all the hitboxes exactly the way they where coming out of Org. ST so I highly doubt that.
I still feel like Ryu beats Honda 7-3ish; pretty bad loss, even if it isn’t the rapefest it was in ST. Jab headbutt mostly keeps you honest up close, but it can be baited and punished pretty badly.
Mostly I listed those characters as losses to justify throwing Honda into lower mid.
The bad part about DeeJay in ST was not getting over Max Outs, the bad part was that even if you manage to jump over them, j.Roundhouse was there to catch you on reaction from almost the other side of the screen. Play against Intercepter in GGPO, it’s impossible to jump Max Outs against him. So, unless Honda has a way to deal with j.Roundhouse, I don’t see how the extra maneuvering range in n.j.Fierce helps him in this matchup. Maybe I’m missing something though.
keep in mind that sagat is based off n.sagat, and was rebalanced from that version. so in remix, his arms(while having the same animations) have a much longer hitbox just like n.sagat did. o.sagat arms, especially on low tiger shot, iirc, were pretty tough to hit.
now i can stuff or trade at worst with low tiger shot at decent range with most characters
Same, and the only reason to not react by this method I would think would be those that play in extremely noisy arcades or tournaments.
I had not seriously played any SF games for about five years until Remix, but I spent about a week playing maybe 4-6 hours a day with Dictator trying to get back into the swing of things and thought I was becoming decent again, at least as far as the average online player goes. And, I did do pretty well. But then I spend a whole two hours dicking around with Claw learning the basics and end up having a much easier time in almost all situations from then on and simply feel like I have double the options. Similar with Honda, except I don’t really like his playstyle so I never spent more than a day with him.
There’s a few things I think geif has an advantage over T-Hawk. Geif has better normal attacks that T-Hawk imo. His :d::hp: is good air defense against those that try to kick early to hit him in the head thus hitting him out of the :3p: or :3k:. Try it out if you don’t believe me. It’s has a little hitch in the start up, so you have to get use to using it, but i’ve hit sagat out of his jumping RH kick with it and we know how good that jumping attack is sir. You just have to throw it out there early so they land on the arm/punch and it will beat almost every jumping attack. The main reason geif is still better than T-Hawk is because of the green hand or :r::hp:. Those moves help geif advance towards your foes without jumping. The green hand( :qcf::p: )and the lariat move him towards people while avioding projectiles without jumping. This allows you to keep the pressure on the ground with his superior ground normal attacks. The best thing about T_hawk is the better hawks dive recovery and :dp::p:, but he still is better when he get’s in and start playing like gief with tick into the 360 throws. Well that doesn’t mean anything to me because both can do the samething when they get close, but with the easier reversals in hd remix I give geif the edge because he doesn’t have to jump to get out of :qcf::p: to :dp::p: traps. t-Hawk Has to jump while geif can still advance on the ground. The run up grab is also a great tool for turtling players sitting in the corner throwing projectiles at you. All of these tools are better than what T-Hawk have imo.
I’ve played some good shoto players. I don’t use shoto’s with :dp:. It’s not just them baiting out a jump that makes the fake fb so powerful. You can use that shit like makoto! You can jump low forward kick into the fake fb and throw them. All you need is 1 throw and I bet in will fuck your foes head up. All you need to do is do it randomly when you have condition your foes to block you cross up combo’s. If they normally do crossup into a low forward into the FB. Just throw a fake FB in there and throw them before they can react. The only way this won’t work is against a 360 spamming geif/T-Hawk player or a dp spamming player. This isn’t suppose to be abused, but it’s anothwer way to take advantage of this new tool. Also if you are playing against a very good shoto player using ryu it’s very hard to jump if he knows how to use the fake fb correctly. I’ve ran into 2 shoto players that used the fake FB really well. It’s not a skill random scrub ryu can pick up and master on the fly. I think it also depends on were your start button is on your joystick. Some people can’t do it due to the fuck up position of their start buttons on their joysticks.
T.Hawk crouching hp is better than Gief’s as far as anti-air goes, and Hawk has a dp. Green hand still isnt safe on hit/block, so I don’t see how you say he is better than T.Hawk. Only thing Gief has up on hawk is c.rh and spd range. But Hawk has that s.rh :/.
Zangief’s SPD has like twice the range of Hawk’s Typhoon. Not to mention Running Grab is a very useful surprise tactic compared to Hawk’s surprise tactics.
I’m talking about against a great shoto player you ain’t just walking around the projectiles. Fake fb against T-hawk are killer. You have to try to jump and T-hawk dive of reaction. Good luck not eatting a :dp: sir. Not jumping in old sf is the best option if you have it imo. Geif has it and T-Hawk doesn’t and that’s what makes geif better than T-Hawk imo. T-Hawk has the samething that make geif good (Tick 360’s), but geif has better tools.
Jumping :lp: with T-hawk = jumping :lk: with geif but with more range than T-Hawk’s attack.
Crouching :mp: with T-Hawk = crouching :mk: with geif but it looks like the powerful crouching :hk:. That makes you block it and you get grabed the sameway T-hawk grabs after that crouching :mp:.
Geif CHESTNUTS better than T-Hawks chest nuts (chest nuts= while jumping :d::hp:)
There’s only onething T-hawks has that geif doesn’t and that’s a dp. But a well timed lariat will do the same job as the dp imo. I’m not saying T-Hawk isn’t any good. You play him very well jeff, but the way to play with T-Hawk you would do the same with geif imo. Ticks into the 360 isn’t anything new with a 360 character. No disrespect to your T-hawk man. I’m just saying that it I don’t see how T-hawk could ever be better than geif. He has less tools than geif. He is improved, but so was geif imo in hd remix.
Now with that said I think T-Hawk attacks were made to beat geif, but overall geif is a better character in hd remix imo.
Id say this is up for debate. They are both really beastly and itd be hard to say which is better.
A DP is a lot more versatile than the lariat. you cant psychic lariat through pokes like you can psychic dp through pokes. Gief also has a LOT tougher matchups (chun, sim, VEGA, guile) than hawk.
Like I said CONGRATS to sirlin for making a good remix version of ST. If the only ranking anyone can agree on in HD remix is akuma then I think this game is balanced enough not to make it boring. No one wants to play a boring game.
Good luck not eatting a :dp: sir. Not jumping in old sf is the best option if you have it imo. Geif has it and T-Hawk doesn’t and that’s what makes geif better than T-Hawk imo. T-Hawk has the samething that make geif good (Tick 360’s), but geif has better tools.