I really wonder how many times this has actually been used to “psyche out” an opponent that was going to jump at you anyway anticipating a real fireball before you even completed the motion for the fake. Seriously, I have NEVER been fooled by that shit and can’t understand the big deal unless it’s aimed at people that supposedly will jump in the first five frames of the fireball startup animation as an automatic reflex. Now how many people actually do that religiously? I always jump if a) I anticipate; which means they either were going to throw a fireball or they weren’t. I have a 50% chance of being right or b) I actually hear it launching. And if I can hear it and was close enough to jump and counter before they recover anyway the fake does absolutely nothing ever.
I wonder about that myself.
If I were a Ryu player I think I would explore it for timing delays, doing fakes before another action instead of mentally inserting a delay.
The sight of a fake might make an opponent behave differently. Perhaps even for the worse if it causes them to jump in less often or predictably!
I’m not personally sold that it’s a noteworthy upgrade, but having the option can’t be negative. It doesn’t mess with other move motions.
I find the fake fireball to definately be a powerful tool when used correctly. When I play vs my boy Scoot he fakes me out to death because he has found an effective way to utilize the fake fireball. I always look for the fireball startup animation before I jump. Those first few frames are what makes me react. With fake fireball, I get punished for playing my normal style of watching for startup frames. Makes Blanka vs Ryu more challenging.
I like your list, but I made some small modifications!
I know I keep asserting that Deejay is top tier, but I really think I am right on this. He’s in a similar position to where Chun was last game - he has very few bad matchups and mostly winning matchups or even ones.
Bottom line, his only two big losses are Ryu and Sim and both matches are winnable. Probably 6.5 Ryu, and 7 sim. I just don’t think Sim deserves that spot in top tier instead of Deejay, due to his losses to Chun, Claw, and Honda (and close but super rough against Blanka).
Losing to chun, claw, and honda is like losing to the entire membership of the US special olympics team. It should automatically disqualify you from medalling in the real olympics.
They both share the same exact nerf, yet players adjusted and still made Sagat a beast, that’s the point. Again if what I said is true of the only change of 11-37 to 11-41 then his recovery stayed exactly the same, and that is the most important factor into Sagat being able to punish people accordingly for trying to jump in on him.
His Low Tigers are still deadly, they just aren’t stupid deadly, the traveling speed in HD:Remix is 1 frame slower then Ryu’s however his recovery after releasing the Tiger Shot would be 1 frame faster then Ryu’s, and that would be the key difference right there as to why Sagat’s Low Tiger>>>Ryu’s Hadouken in HD still. Unless Sirlin changed that part too, however unlikely considering he said he added only 4 more frames to the projectile, which would which would coincide with the slower projectile from the 37, not the 11, otherwise the Tiger Shot would have been complete trash giving Sagat a huge 15 frame recovery after the projectile, regardless of having the original 37 speed. Imo, I don’t see him dropping much down the tier list.
As for Ryu’s fake Hadouken that will be useful, I don’t see how it cannot be. Back then I would throw out a low poke or something during my Hadouken positioning barrages into making opponents flinch or mess up to punish them, however opponents like Decoy stated would usually anticipate the animation first before making the commitment to do something. However with the Fake Hadouken and its much faster recovery, I can animate like I’m actually throwing it, giving them the full authority to wanting to commit and fall into doing a mistake instead.
It’s guess work and baiting, however both are going to be in Ryu’s favor when used correctly.
Your Sim is showing, no Gief at all?:wtf:
Yeah, Honda is definitely upper mid.
Hm, I guess I don’t see it. Still loses badly to Deejay, Ryu, Ken, Akuma, and Guile; a lot of clear losses.
What?
wtf pokkon? Ryu lower mid?
No way.
Other than Chun, this is almost exactly how I would place them too.
Yep.
Also, Chun is high tier no longer. She’s mid tier, now. She got super-nerfed: her super damage was reduced and it is now difficult or impossible to juggle after it; her new SBK has no practical use apart from circumnavigating projectiles (some lists file the new SBK parabolic arc under buffs, LOL), and it can no longer be used as a reversal (making it easier than ever to jump in on her); no more RH flip kick confusion; and lightning legs do less damage and are more vulnerable.
I will say, though, that I might be willing to put her back into the high category after I play around more with the new SBK shenanigans. It’s tough to evoke on command some of the different versions of that move that are possible (specifically, the nigh-stationary “hovering Chun” version and the ground-level “breakdance” version) (EDIT: nm about the hovering SBK, figured it out, butt easy to do), but if they can be done consistently, she might be able to use it as an effective defensive maneuver.
Like Decoy said, I used to react to Fireballs based on the animation. Up close, it was the difference between jumping straight up over Fireballs and eating them. But now, if I’m halfway across the screen, a Fireball animation doesn’t tell me anything, and if they Fake and THEN throw a Fireball, you Jump straight up against the fake and land on the real one. It’s pretty irritating.
- James
Fake fb is one of the best improvements in the game don’t believe me then play scoot magee and try saying it’s not that good.
I always reacted to the sound. I would react the second I heard “Ha-”. Fake fireball would be fucking mean if Ryu yelled “Hadouken” when he did it as well as went through the motion.
Disagree. He still loses, but not badly, not even in the ballpark of how he lost to them before. This is especially so for the DeeJay matchup. In ST that matchup was really hard because it was so hard just to get over maxouts, but with the new neutral jump fierce being more controllable, it’s pretty easy now. And once Honda gets in, he’s now considerably stronger against these characters because jab headbutt is boss in footsie games. In ST, even if Honda’s at footsie range, a single projectile could knock him back out and he’d have to start his game over. But now, jab headbutt makes it much riskier to throw fireballs at that range, so Honda can concentrate more on counterpoking, counter-headbutting, and walk-up-throwing. Jab headbutt is ok occasionally but not great for getting in and jumping short is ok if you’re sure you’re at a safe range to do it, and both of these things help in these matchups a bit, but they both have counters and aren’t really that great.
Personally, I think Guile is a roundhouse flash kick away from being even, I think DeeJay and Ryu are both considerably better matchups, and I think Akuma is about as hard for Honda as Ryu is. In my opinion, Ken is now Honda’s worst match. Fierce dragon punch can knock Honda out of neutral jumping fierce from really far away and Ken’s fast fireball recovery and slow-moving fireballs make it not that hard for him to set this up. And once Honda gets in on Ken, he now has to worry about a wakeup fierce dragon punch that’s actually a reasonable wakeup move considering that it always knocks down and does beefy damage. So it’s probably about as hard for Honda to get in on Ken as it was before, maybe only slightly easier, but Honda’s worse up close than he was before. I’d put this match at like… 7-3, I guess.
I know, right? Like he did in Alpha 2 (he would yell, “ha…!”). That would have been perfect.
That, AND he can now do the fwd.splash or the sh.splash to cleanly beat the slide. Dee Jay actually has to do a little work to beat Honda, now. (Still not much, but it’s no longer a flat-out cake walk.)
Honda is good as f*ck in HDR. If I’m not fighting someone I know to be a world class turtle or crack Ken player, I ain’t afraid of sh!t.
What?
The fireball has worse recovery, 4 frames or something, meaning it’s much easier to punish. I’m pretty sure he also extends his arms further forward. How fast he releases the fireball has little to do with that (but also counts in making them worse) because that’s all he more time he’s stuckt in the fireball animation with his limbs extended.
That’s a HUGE part of sagat gone. Tigers were mindless because they were godlike, hard to punish with some chars even when you predicted them, not because of some “mindless” property the move had. Non charge sonic booms almost. They aren’t mindless anymore because they aren’t as GOOD. It’s like night and day. As for the buffs, it’s not like you can throws random tigerknees all the time and expect them to hit. The best buff is the super, but i don’t think it makes up for the fireball rape. I don’t know if he’s top tier anymore, that would take knowing all the machups and all. All i know for sure is that sagat doesn’t scare me with any of the chars i play. I loose if the player outsmarts me, but nothing spells hell like the bullshit o.sagat fireballs.
I don’t even know if the game has any “top tiers” outside of akuma. Boxer headbutt recovery makes a huge difference to me, pissed the shit out of me in ST but now i don’t care. I can’t see how removing the knockdown property of claw’s dives doesn’t affect him (hitting with one used to give you a safe 50% chance to hit a second one against most of the cast, and hitting the second one gave you another, all of that is gone) and i haven’t played enough good sims to know, all i know is that i don’t get noogied as often.
Then again i’m not good or anything.
Akuma is definitely retarded tho, i don’t care what anyone says.