The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
481

Sim lost :
Noogie loop
Antiair super

The antiair super is the one I feel to be honest. Especially against blanka. It used to be, Blanka realllly had to think about jumping once I got meter. Now he doesn’t give two shits and just keeps jumping.

Honda’s super improvement has made the matchup completely different for me. I think other players are seeing similar things. Honda builds meter so fast that his super + the loss of yoga flame trap + the tripguard + easier fierce hands has made him pretty much whup Sim’s ass.

The faster ball and rainbow roll, and improvements to hop invulnerability, and the removal of sim’s super as reliable antiair has drastically changed the Blanka matchup as well.

Cammy’s ability to put ridiculous pressure on, go through fireballs, and the j.mp is still really damn good, has made her pretty damned tough. The easier hooligan sure helps too, as that used to be a tool that was super hard to use against Sim, and now it just pwns.

The chun matchup without serious noogie traps (it’s about the same range as chun’s throw now, it feels like - I get reversal thrown out of noogies all the time now) is super lame. Her super being nerfed feels like it makes no difference, but the nerf of my super sure feels different. The ability to tick cancel low jab into yoga flame into throw is nice, but not game changing. The upflames make no difference.

Ken, Ryu, Gief and Thawk are much tougher matches, too, bordering on even in my opinion. The fake fireball actually has made a difference to people who use it.

Deejay is actually still one of sim’s best matchups, but it is significantly harder no that the jab yoga flame trap is not so reliable and Deejay’s crossups are even more brutal, and also his sobat kick goes over low forward now (much to my chagrin:P). Maybe that was always the case but man it sucks.

Dictator match is much worse without the corner trap.

Guile is still a winner possibly, but much, much harder.

Basically the only improvements for Sim were:
Fei Long is now 9/1 instead of 8/2 (whee)
Claw is now 6/4 claw instead of 7/3 (yay?)
Boxer is now 6/4 sim instead of 5/5 (imho)
Akuma might only beat him by a little (which I am nearly positive he does, maybe 6/4 Akuma).

But on the flipside:
Ken, Chun, Ryu, Guile, Deejay, Blanka, Cammy, Thawk, and Gief all have better matchups, and are much more viable characters in the case of Cammy, Blanka, and Gief.

Given the dangers in using Sim already, I don’t think he’s in top tier anymore.

My opinion of tiers is moving toward:
Elephant tier: Akuma
Top: Claw, Chun, Boxer, Deejay (in that order)
Upper Mid: Dictator, Sim, Guile, Honda, Sagat (In no particular order)
Mid: Blanka, Ken, Cammy, Thawk, Gief, Ryu (again no particular order)
Trash: Fei (in order)

482

I still think Sagat is top tier. That’s just what I’ve seen so far. Yes, his zoning prowess has been significantly decreased, especially with Akuma in the mix. However, he can now rip people apart up close if they make a mistake. His dizzy power is amazing. Being able to dizzy off of a simple j. roundhouse, c. forward, low tiger is waaaay strong. If you can reliably do his cross up combo that does like 80%, you’ll be able to murder people. Despite his strength, he is pretty fun to fight against now, since he can play a close game or a zoning game. It’s not a brain dead fight by any means.

As for sim, I think pokken covered that pretty well. The loss of the noogie loop coupled with the loss of his super being reliable AA just hurts. Also, apparently it is rather hard to combo into his super now, which also hurts.

483

Yeah, I was gonna mention that.

Sagat has some of the most practical dizzy combos and TOD’s out of the cast aside from Bison of course.

484

Why is everyone saying Dhalsim “lost” the throw loop. Lost is the wrong word. The only thing they did to Sim and Rog was nerf the ranges on their strong punch throws. You can still do the loops. Unlike before, Rog and Sim have to actually enter their opponent’s throw range to do a loop. And if we want to get technical about it, Sim can still use fierce throw, since the range wasn’t nerfed, if he wants to throw w/o fear of a counter throw. Nerfed? Absolutely. Lost? No.

485

Somehow I completely forgot about E. Honda’s super :annoy:. All the other improvements don’t really matter.

j. short having tripguard doesn’t matter since none of sim’s crouching moves beat it in Vanilla anyway. easier Fierce HHS doesn’t really matter to me, since all of the good hondas i’ve played on GGPO like ultradavid and enigma mount could pull them off consistently in Vanilla

Anti-air super sucking just means that Sim has to keep his concentration up longer against Blanka, which does make the match more difficult since Blanka does rely on lucky random hits to win this match, and probability of that occurring increases the longer the round goes

486

The bottom line is Sim got better in exactly two matches (Claw/Boxer) and the rest he got worse or no change. These two matches he only got VERY SLIGHTLY better at. Claw walldives were a nice bonus, but claw won that match on the ground and in the air before. He still wins, just by a little less.

In ST, Sim had a lot of blowouts (deejay, ryu, ken, fei, guile, hawk, gief), only two losing matchups (Chun and Claw) and a lot of even or edge matchups (pretty much every other match either slightly favored Sim or was even).

Now most of the matches he used to have blowouts in range from a little bit closer (Ken, Ryu, Deejay) to slight edges (guile, hawk, gief).

Several matches he used to have edges in are now reversed (slight edges against him - Blanka, Dictator, Cammy) in my opinion. The Honda match has gone from roughly even or a slight edge to Sim, to 7/3 Honda (imho - the super meter building for Honda combined with instant death in the corner combined with Honda escaping corner traps).

Even if the changes are subtle, I think just the fact that Honda and Blanka are viable main characters now will make the game a lot worse for Sim.

487

how does bison, blanka and cammy have a slight edge over dhalsim now?

cammy can’t even do jumping mp against sim right now without eating slides. cannon drill is safer now, but it doesnt do squat far away where sim excells at.

what can bison do against repeated hk drills? that tactic owned bison in vanilla ST and one frame devil reverse invincibility is not going to help.

where is the slight edge coming from with blanka? his horizontal ball, rainbow roll and super got better, but you can punish his horizontal ball after its blocked. his rainbow roll is safe on block but there nothing really threatening about that move.

and honda vs sim. honda still have a hard time dealing with fireballs and its also easier to hit him out of the slaps now. the match is more of the same like in vanilla ST.

sounds like you haven’t played any good sims. i don’t blame you, neither have i.

btw, how is chun top tier in your eyes? everything she has got nerfed except regular sbk.

488

I have played Sagat more than anyone thus far in Remix, and I see him as top of 2nd tier. Those 4 extra recovery frames on tiger shots make a huge difference.

Tiger knee isn’t that great at high level. The whiffing stuff was never more than just a gimmick, as top players could react to it and combo you for free. And it has no priority at all…hell, I’ve seen it lose to Fei’s chicken wing! Some characters can even jump over it (e.g. Chun, Blanka). It’s great for punishing DPs, but that’s about it.

Another important point which almost nobody seems to know about is that the majority of the cast can duck under Sagat’s crossup. That was the only way you were going to land those 100% combos in a real match, so now you can kiss that goodbye except against Gief or someone. Really hurts his wakeup game in general, too, which leaves you with TIGER TIGER.

As far as matchups go, he lost to 3 characters in ST (Sim, Vega, Rog) and still loses to them in Remix. I’m pretty sure Blanka beats him now, and I could see Bison & Honda having the edge as well. Just about every other matchup got worse to at least some extent - even Cammy & Fei are real threats now.

Really, the only improvements to Sagat that consistently matter in high-level play are throw teching and the better super. Otherwise he’s a gimped Old Sagat more than anything else. I mean that in a good way, though, as I think he’s one of Sirlin’s better balancing jobs.

489

Seems like we are going around in circles and the only real conclusion we can all draw is that everyone is closer in terms of that power level.

Characters got better at match-ups and worse at others. Good characters got toned down and bad ones got buffed.

Seems like the more we discuss the more it’s become apparent that accurate tiers are quite a way off.

490

Now, correct me if I’m wrong here, however Sagat’s Tiger Shots have been changed from 11-37 to 11-41 with the added frames 4-extra frames am I correct. If so, why is everyone saying this “pushes” him out of top-tier status? Because HF Sagat had 11-41 frames for his Tiger Shots as well, and that didn’t stop him from being Top 4 within HF (Arguably only Ryu, Guile, and Blanka where better), because although his CE had the 11-37 Tiger Shots of Doom which is exactly the same as O. Sagat’s, good Sagat players adjusted accordingly when HF came around and still hammered and pinned you down with Tiger Shot madness.

So to me I don’t see how this will not occur within HD:Remix with good Sagat players as well. Given my time playing HD has not been huge, however playing Sagat myself, his Tiger Shots feel very HF like, which is still beastly. Okay, so they are alittle bit slower, however the recovery from the projectiles are the same as O. Sagat, it’s just that the speed of which it travels across the stage is obviously toned down. This is the only real “break” to Sagat, and imo, it’s not even a big one, now if Sagat’s recovery from his Tiger Shot was also toned down, then yes, it would be gigantic, however 11-37 to 11-41 is not a huge handicap here.

In fact I’ve always felt that Ryu’s Hadouken from 11-39 in HF to 12-40 in ST was a more drastic change in comparison to what HD Sagat received, simply because that one single extra frame of recovery from 11 to 12 makes such a huge difference in Ryu being more liable to being punishment. So to me, I’m more leaning on that Sagat is still viable for Top-Tier potential, he got one slight tone down, and solid upgrades.

491

why are you looking at this so 1 dimensionally?

Sim’s shorter grab range and vulnerable super now mean that sim relies on perfect play in order to take the match. blanka can play a trade hit for hit game unlike in ST where he could only trade hit for hit until super came online where he would hten have to stop jumping for fear of 50%.

Further, sim can’t gain damage with noogie’s anymore since Blanka now cleanly surpasses the range. no longer is blanka going to be counter grabbed with noogie and lose anything form 25% to 50% for trying to take advantage of the one hole he found in sim’s game. less grab range means harder to counter ticks.

these are both huge plusses for blanka. Definitely takes an edge matchup in sim’s favour to even or perhaps favour in blanka’s.

492

I rarely see Sim/Blanka matches where Sim has consistently gotten in throws against Blanka, or at least where noogie made a difference.

Super nerf is definitely a biggie though

493

I agree with you about sagat. Imo ryu is better. Honda wins that battle 6-4 in hd remix imo, but I’m just a random scrub from the south. When I know someone is going to pick sagat I pick honda. Losing the recovery speed on his tiger shots was all I needed to punish him. Thank youj sirlin for that nerf! :rock: chun li still beats blanka. All of her pokes beats blanka’s pokes clean. Sim still beats blanka, but its not 8-2 like in regular st. I do think akuma is in a tier of his own. I do feel honda might be a character that can counter akuma. Jab headbutts eat air fb’s clean and hit akuma on his way down. Even on meaty wakeup air fb crossup trap I was able to beat or trade with the air fb, but you will hit akuma with big counter damage! Jab headbutt to advance out of sweep range and if they try to sweep you do the foward kick ass splash. My best character against akuma is honda due to the jab headbutt allowing me to advance why building meter!

I don’t know what tier honda is suppose to be in, but him and cammy get the most improved award imo. Cammy is underrated imo.

494

completely different games

495

Dhalsim is my main, and I play with one of the best bison’s in the country on a regular basis. He has answers to everything, can escape sim’s traps, and has an inescapable trap of his own ( no meter, and Sim is stuck).

Cammy’s J.mp stuff still works fairly well if you do it to get over fireballs. That aside, Cammy also has easier hooligans (which execution was actually a barrier to even very good players on), safe lk cannon drills, her bullshit go through fireballs move, and so on. She also has a brutal crossup game to which Sim has very little answer. And he has no real way to prevent a good cammy from getting in. People forget (well, not good Cammy players) that cammy’s neutral j.mp has the same hitbox as before and cannot be slid. so doing a neutral j.mp at midscreen over a fireball is still virtually 100% safe.

Honda does not really have a hard time dealing with sim’s fireballs. If you think he does, I don’t really know what to say to you, as you must be playing world warriors or something on some secret network. Nothing has changed for Sim as far as slaps go – db.jab and back RH still beat them clean just like always.

Chun is top tier, because nothing she got nerfed with seriously affects her game against most characters, and most characters did not get any buffs that affect their game vs her. She has a slightly harder time against Ryu, but there’s no more old Sagat to worry about.

She’s flat out got the best matches in the game. So she loses to Ryu - you’ve gotta have a couple losing matches. But beating Boxer, Sim, Claw, Dictator, Honda, and Blanka is pretty damned good for a start.

496

At the top level, Sim should almost never be trying to throw Blanka, I will agree. However, sometimes it is the only way out of the bite shenanigans once he gets in.

However, however - I now use fierce throw for that, and it gives me a big range advantage, so I don’t really worry about it as much.

On mid-scrub blankas, I used to noogie trap the shit out of them though, which I miss. I would say the Noogie shenanigan change has made my game more difficult against poorer players, but made no real difference against good players (excepting Chun and Claw).

497

This debate kinda show me that sirlin did a great job in trying to rebalance the best sf of alltime. The only thing most of us if not all of the people agree on is akuma is the BEST hands down! They toned down sagat, rog, sim, vega but most think they are still top tier. More so of vega and rog than sim and sagat. Imo ryu is better than sagat in hd remix. The fake fb cancel is the future of shoto players. I think people are just starting to tap into the power of the fake fb Madness.

My tiers now are:

Stupid tier:
Akuma
Top tier in order:
Rog
Vega
Sim
Ryu
Sagat
Chun li

2nd tier:
Deejay
Honda
Guile
Cammy
Blanka
Geif
Bison

3rd tier:
Feilong
T Hawk

That’s how I see it, but I see T Hawk as a better character in hd remix than regular st. This game is pretty balenced imo. It more about counters than tiers imo.

498

Here’s my two cents tier-wise, in rough order:

Top Tier
Boxer
Claw
Chun Li
Sim

Upper Mid
Sagat
Deejay
Dictator
Ryu
Guile

Low Mid
Blanka
Honda
Ken
Thawk

Bottom
Cammy
Fei Long

My opinion is constantly shifting, especially between top and upper mid.

499

are you really that nuts? Bison at the bottom of 2nd tier? hawk worst character in the game? Ryu and chun with the likes of rog and sim and claw? You needa play a good hawk to show you how scary he is.

500

I’m curious why you think Gief is better than Hawk in HD Remix? I’m not saying it’s definitely wrong, would just like to hear your thoughts.