The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
441

Amen, shinblanka.

Tournament results are useful, but only for finding out the Top tier really. After people quickly figure out the top tier, a lot of folks stop using the other characters, so it can be hard to figure out their ranking if you really want to use tourney results.

The true way to find out the tiers would be to gather the best players for each character and make them all play a massive round robin tournament with 10 games a match. However, this is impractical. We must rely on theory and examination of each characters tools versus the others.

Oh, and I’ll chime in:

S: Akuma
A: Sagat, Boxer, Claw
B: Dhalsim, Ryu, Guile, Dee Jay, Chun-Li, Honda, Dictator
C: T. Hawk, Blanka, Ken
D: Zangief, Fei Long
F: Cammy

That’s just my opinion. Keep in mind though that I think that the tiers are pretty narrow and are heavily match up dependent.

I suspect that I’m wrong about Fei-Long in particular. It wouldn’t surprise me if he ended up being at least high mid. His new short chicken wing is pretty potent and very safe. Hell, if he could still combo fierce into rekkas after a chicken wing I’d nominate him for high tier.

442

Who’s talking about us tourneys?:confused:

Damn, that’s truth.

…Umm yeah apparently I’m blind because I don’t see the post that said 3s is more balanced then st.

443

People keep constantly comparing 3s and ST and saying blah blah this one is balanced because but no this one is balanced because.

444

I dunno about most balanced but every character does win tourneys. Well Cammy’s prospects are pretty gloomy… but a team of Hawks just got 3rd in the biggest event of the year.

445

HF>ST when it comes to balance, the only character I’ve ever found to be difficult to play with competitive wise in that game was Bison, otherwise everyone was very solid in that game, not to mention the Top-Tiers in there did not grip with an iron fist.

To be real and honest with myself about this, balance is overrated, so let me emphasize this again…balance is overrated. I’m really glad that most of the peeps I was playing with back in the early 90’s weren’t bitching and crying to each other about how unbalanced shit was…because had we’d of done so, everyone would have quit during WW and CE (If you where a Ryu player back in WW, you would know, if you felt the fury of CE. Bison during the early 90’s you would know what I’m talking about).

ST is balanced enough that you can play with a solid group of the cast without feeling that every single match up is an up hill fight (maybe only Cammy). Not only is the game solid in being balanced, but you don’t lose any of the strategical values of it, where as in some other fighting games, they’ll water things down so heavily (doing nothing but toning moves down, and watering the game engine to newbville standard) just to make things balanced which completely sucks.

Obviously some other characters struggle greatly in ST at times, however does it need to be extremely balanced to be considered a good fighting game? You go through ALL of the fighting games from 1991 to now and name to me 20 fighting games in which it was super balanced with it being made exclusively of only 5-5 to 6-4 match ups and that it had a strong competitive scene that was respectable.

So ST doesn’t have all 5-5 and 6-4 match ups, okay, so what, who really cares. The SFII game engine is one of the greatest 2-D fighting game engines ever conceived and I’m sure that’s the reason why it is STILL played today, so I’m pretty happy to know that most people can overlook the balance talk (which again is overrated).

To get back on the Tier discussion, replying to Angry, your tier list isn’t too bad, I would change some characters around in it though, one such example is that Guile imo should be in the A class.

446

I’m gonna be lame here and point out that there are some 6.5/3.5 fights. See Eddie vs. Potemkin, May vs. Ino, Axl vs. HOS

anyway

I’m torn between Remix & HF, honestly. I think HF is more “balanced”, yes, but part of that is for a rather dumb reason (the number of viable 100% combos + more dizzies in general). Remix strikes a nice equilibrium in this regard, though it’s still too early to conclusively say.

And I think players are sleeping on Chun more than anyone right now. People still don’t seem to realize she actually was top-tier in ST (some Japanese tourneys had rules about picking top-tier and she was included in that list), and she didn’t get a whole lot worse.

To be more specific, Chun had 4 losing matchups in ST: Old Sagat, Claw, Ryu, & Old Ken. Ryu is slightly worse now but the others are all better for her. I could very well see Ken & Sagat being even now thanks to their worse fireballs.

And the only new losing matchups I see for her are Akuma (who beats almost everyone) and maybe T.Hawk. Chun vs. Old Hawk was actually a very close fight in ST since she couldn’t do much about his body splash, and the new Remix stuff for Hawk + the nerfs to Chun probably make up for the loss of the throw loop.

I dunno, I just don’t see how she falls into mid tier at all.

447

With the changes to Honda, Blanka, and his worse matches against Ken, Ryu and Dictator (slightly, in some cases), it’s my opinion that Chun is top tier and Sim is upper mid. That’s the only huge tier change I’d make amongst the uppers.

448

My Opinion on tiers

SS: Akuma
A+: Honda, Sagat, Claw, Boxer, Sim
A: Almost Everyone Else
B: Cammy.

Balance is not underrated. Poor balance will hurt the playerbase of a game. There are plenty of games I hate due to poor character balance. I don’t think Cammy is as bad as everyone makes her out to be, despite being the worst char in the game, she’s viable.

As for Chun, some chars really do better against her now. Blanka especially. That match was even in ST, now it’s at least 6-4 Blanka.

449

Honda is NOT that strong man.

450

I disagree some. He has some bad matchups, but the people he beat for free before he mostly still beats for free, and those he lost to he doesn’t lose to as bad, or even beats in some case.

The only matchups that I think are worse for him in HD are Dictator (who he still beats) and Blanka (who he still beats)

Do I think he’s the best char in STHD? No. He’s the worst char of that tier, but given the number of good to great matchups he has, I think he belongs.

451

say what?

you must explain this! Ball upgrades were all blanka got, and ball is useless vs chun since she’s covered by her run away fireball > legs> jumpback > etc.

Elec is okay for late anti air but pimp slap should have been an option in most cases and as for close range, throw is superior to elec.

Or is it just chuns super nerf?

452

Man, I really agree with some things here, and disagree really bad on others.

As a Chun player, here’s what I think: Chun was at LEAST 2nd tier, debatably top, and she didn’t get much worse. I seriously don’t get how anyone can put her at mid tier when she has only 2-4 bad matchups.

Here’s the thing, though: A lot of her BAD matchups are the ones that got worse, mostly due to her new SBK. In ST, SBK only had two functions:

  1. Escaping Crossups, and

  2. The Air SBK was good for building meter in the corner during fireball traps.

Both of these functions are substantially worse for Chun now. The ground SBK starts up a lot faster, meaning the invulnerability window is a lot shorter now. The Air SBK is a lot more floaty and easier to punish than it was before when using it to build meter in the corner.

The second one is a huge deal, because against characters like Ryu and Sagat, where her big weak spots were dealing with their corner traps, they’re even harder to escape now! So, I think that all shotos and Sagat are hard(er) matchups, now.

453

chun still loses to hawk. and i stand by that.

454

I think chun li is high mid tier or low high tier in hd remix. I see the tools, but i’m just saying what people think about chun li. I don’t think sagat is top tier in hd remix. I think he is at the very top of 2nd tier along with ryu. I feel that ryu is a better character in hd remix, but that’s just one scrubs opinion.:xeye: The tiers are so muddy in this game because some characters have great matchup’s against the high tier characters. I agree with chun li being top tier in hd remix. AKuma is the best, but he’s not easy to use in high level play due to 1 combo can dizzy and kill him.:wow:

I still think it’s stupid to have a tier list for a game that hasn’t been out for 2 months yet. Fuck a tier list. I say just play the characters who you like to play with and learn a counter character against the character that’s teh worst matchup for your favorite character.

455

The ball isn’t useless against Chun now, it now has some use.

the match was even to begin with, as smart Blanka gets in on Chun fairly easily. Chun has to mix it up now to keep Blanka out, even moreso then before. The matchup isn’t horrible, but I think it’s 6-4 Blanka.

Legs aren’t that good vs Blanka anymore also due to the legs nerf.

456

Personally, I think the safe Blanka Ball didn’t help worth crap against Chun, because Chun already couldn’t punish it with anything. That match didn’t change at all, in my opinion - 6-4 Chun.

457

ball is useless, since all her jump attacks beat it clean and a good chun will have fireballs out which should deter you from random balling when she doesn’t, especially with the damage increase to blanka being hit out of them.

I don’t believe the match was even in ST. Heres what some good players had to say about the original match up of Chun vs Blanka http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/2008/09/super-diagram-turbo-version-2.html:

(chun users)
NKI 6-4
Buktooth 5.5-4.5
Chris Doyle 8-2
Jeron Grayson 5-5
(Blanka users)
Fatboy 8-2
Nohoho 6-4

Chun has difficulty escaping the bite, but unlike most other characters her normals really give blanka a hard time getting in. Her air attacks can often neutralize up balls and you have to pimp slap her seriously early because her j/mk (i think) stays out for ever and beats everything except elec and early st.hp.

When you say chun has to ‘mix it up now’, what do you mean by this? The match up is definitely easier for blanka now thanks to super nerf and her altered spinning bird kick (which i which i hear doesn’t help get out of cross ups like the old one did,) but its still chuns to lose, not the other way around. Afterall it wasn’t the super that won this match, it was chuns solid keepaway game.

458

I haven’t tended to my post in a few days :razzy: I don’t see where any of the match-ups I posted for Dee Jay are that outlandish, except for maybe the Balrog match-up. I did edit the Dhalsim match-up because, well, I see how it’s a loss for Dee Jay, but I still haven’t gotten to play it in HDR, so I’m going to take Pokken and others’ word for it. 4-6 at least.

Zoolander: I’d like to play a good Sagat, so sure, add me on XBL. But really, how you get a “Lol at Dee Jay being advantaged over everyone” is beyond me. He loses to Ryu, Sagat, I added Dhalsim to losing. Other than that, most of his matches are damn close. I totaled him as +7 against the cast, which is not much higher than the +5 that the Japanese chart on nh2’s blog gave Dee Jay. It is actually much lower than Afrolegends put him on the US chart. And how do I think he is being slept on? In Vanilla, Dee Jay was probably 7th or so after Sim, O.Sagat, Rog, Vega, Chun, and Ryu. No lower than 10th. For example, I think he is better overall than Guile now, yet Guile has gotten a lot of talk for the last month and Dee Jay has not. I’m not ready to call him a definite top tier, but he’s right under them.

Josh (Rash): Good point about Balrog’s standing fierce. I wonder if Dee Jay’s low strong still beats it, because I am pretty sure I have stuffed a few turn punches with Dee Jay’s low strong. I’m sleepy as crap, so maybe I’m imagining that. Yes, being sleepy is going to be my excuse for any mistakes I make in this post :wgrin: Although something I do know is that Balrog hitting Dee jay’s slide isn’t a big deal. Standing Strong, Fierce, and sometimes forward/roundhouse are Dee Jay’s main anti-air normals. So while Balrog can hit the slide with air moves, so can most of the cast. It isn’t a big deal.

459

I still think Honda’s still a mid to upper-mid level player.

He loses to more than 1/3 of the cast, has fair to close matches with several and beats about 1/3. That seems mid-level to me.

The matchups in order from worst are IMO:

Dee Jay
Ryu
Ken
Akuma

Not as bad as above, but still bad:

Guile
Chun Li

Still beats Honda, but not as bad as the others:

Sagat

More or less even match:

Dhalsim

Boxer

Slight edge for Honda:

Dictator (as long as Honda gets ahead and can turtle, there’s not alot that dictator can do)

Advantage for Honda:

Blanka

Claw (again, turtling FTW)

Large advantage for Honda:

Cammy

Fei

Largest advantage for Honda:

T. Hawk

Zanghief

Here’s Ultra David’s list:

Bad (3-7ish):
Ken
Akuma

Losing, but not too bad (4-6ish):
Ryu
DeeJay
Chun
Guile

Pretty much even:
Sagat
Boxer
Claw
Blanka

Edge for Honda (6-4ish):
Dictator
Sim

Honda wins (7-3ish):
Hawk
Fei
Gief
Cammy

460

Broken:
Akuma

Top:
Balrog
Sim
Chunli
Vega
Guile
Honda
Sagat
**
High:**
Ryu
Dee Jay
Blanka
Ken
**
Middle:**
Zangief
T Hawk

Low:
Cammy
Fei Long

Fei Long is probably the worst character and Akuma is probably the best character. I’ve even talked to Jumpsuit (one of the best Fei players online) and he pretty much agrees with me that Fei has become one dimensional and is probably a little worse than ST Fei Long. Since ST Fei Long was lower mid tier and everyone else got a power up that puts Remix Fei squarely in bottom tier. I can go into why, but if you all played him for an extended period of time against good players then you probably already know.

However, when you look at how big the top tier is and how viable most characters are you really have to applaud Sirlin for his work on balancing the game. That being said I’m extremely pissed that once again I picked the worst character in the game as my main. First it was in MvC2 with Jin and now this. Anyway I’m probably switching to Honda, so whatever.