The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
421

Being new to any actual competitive aspect of the game (friends you beat every day don’t count) I feel that DeeJay is definitely one of the “easier” characters to win with. That’s not to say he takes less skill than anyone else to play, but that he has the tools he needs to deal with most situations.

I’ve been playing Dictator for about a week straight, and sometimes I just get so frustrated losing to the same shit (fireball zoning/repeated body splashes or T.Hawk jumping jabs in the corner etc) and so to vent I pick DeeJay and end up beating the person that just beat me, usually not losing any rounds. Strangely DeeJay is one of the easier matchups for my Dictator to win, but maybe it’s not two players of equal skill, but I can honestly say I don’t ever remember losing, or at least handily to even a decent DeeJay so far.

422

well, its been a month since this game came out and i’ve predicted back then that fei long, cammy and gief were bottom tier. i think its still true, with gief being dead last.

as for the top tiers, sagat is the best character hands down imo. he only loses to sim and that matchup has gotten better since he can tech his throws now and not too sure, but his tiger uppercut might have gotten better vs sim. he does fine vs akuma but as time passes, i think it’ll be an even match or him losing slightly or even at a slight advantage.

some matchups have gotten harder like guile, blanka and i think thats about it.

balrog is definitely number 2 imo. he still has too much going for him. no one rushes down as hard as him and he can also play defensively with his headbutts and TAPs. the damage nerf on his super is barely noticable compared to chun lis

after that, its a tossup, but vega and sim belongs up here imo. akuma belongs somewhere here too. i cant say hes the best character in the game yet, but raging demon is hands down the best super in the game.

top tier: sagat, balrog, vega, sim, akuma
high tier: deejay, guile, blanka, ryu, bison
mid: chun li, thawk, honda, ken
average tier: fei long, cammy, gief

chun li got the most nerfed imo. the damage nerf on her super are very noticable. lightning legs lost damage, stun and priority and her new air sbk is useless compared to her old one. also, no more flipping neckbreaker BS (thank god, shit was 100% random, probably the most stupidest thing in vanilla ST)

423

LOL @ dj having favorable matchups against everyone except ryu or sagat. I don’t see how you can think dj is being slept on when the general consensus on srk at least is that he’s mid tier and US tournament results reflect that. Getting a better mgu isn’t enough to move him up i nremix especially with a lot of the cast getting better and the toptiers not being nerfed that much.

Nevermore: The learning curve of a character is not in any way indicative of how good the yare overall and dj is NOT one of dictator’s easier matchups.

Icy I’d like to play your dj some time I don’t see too many of those on xbl or psn:sad:

424

I don’t know if we are even really talking about the same thing here. And it does seem like, at least to me that it takes a more concentrated effort to do well with Dictator compared to DeeJay in quite a few matchups. If you are only looking at two players that know each character the best you can possibly know either character and put them up against each other or some other characters that’s a different story, but the majority of players are not like that and unless you only play against top players you can’t really look at it like that either. Since this thread is about who would come out on top under the extreme optimal circumstances I guess your point is the more valid, I was just making an observation. And for the players I usually play against, DeeJay is one of the easier matchups. Maybe closer to equal would be a better description, because I don’t ever feel like I have some huge advantage, but I also never really worry about what they are doing as much either.

425

Nope.

DJ just doesn’t have match-ups as good as those above him.

He is mid tier because he is an average character in vanilla.

Characters don’t just happen to be top tier. It’s all about your tools and your tools affect your match-ups which affects your tier placement.

HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? :mad::shake::mad::shake::shake::mad::confused:

426

DJ has the best crossup game, some of the best normals, and he’s very versatile overall but if he’s as good as iceman says how come we see way more o,sagats, claws, sims, rogs, n ryus in tourneys? where are the deejays winning tournaments showing he has favorable matchups against almost everyone?

[media=youtube]bFeboA2hwug&fmt=18[/url[/media]

427

Because people are use to using those characters imo. Deejay has been under rated for YEARS in ST. Truthfully it wasn’t until afrolegends started to win with him at evo when people started to play with him imo. I’ve been to alot of tournaments and I didn’t see alot of deejay’s untill afro started to wax people ass with deejay. Matter of fact people played more guile than deejay and deejay has more tools than guile, but both are charge sonicboom characters. ST is about countering not tiers. Yes the tiers are there, but it’s not as bad as other games like 3S imo. ST is prolly the best balanced sf ever made imo.

428

I’m going to nitpick and go completely offtopic…

You believe it’s more balanced than Hyperfighting/Turbo?

429

LOL, you beat me to it. How in the world does someone say "ST is about countering not tiers." and "ST is prolly the best balanced sf ever made imo." almost all in the same paragraph?

If that’s called balance then 3S is THE most balanced game EVER.:rofl:

~Decoy

430

Honestly, I’d put DeeJay right outside top tier looking in. He’s not quite there, but he’s pretty damn close. It takes a lot of matchup knowledge and impeccable execution to win at the highest levels, but it is very gratifying when you win. DeeJay is definitely underrated, but I don’t think he’s as powerful, nor has as many lopsided matchups as the top tier. He’s still my boy, though.

Edit: The above statement applies to ST, not HDR. Unfortunately, I don’t have a stick to play on yet. My super duper custom one is about 90% done, so I should be on soon.

431

…dude, what the hell are you on? The Japanese don’t come over here and win tourneys with Twelve in 3S. Hell, they don’t come over and win with AKUMA in 3S. No, they go straight for the nuts. CVS2? Super Turbo? All top-tier. Once one comes over and just ruins everyone with low-tier after a game’s been out for a couple years, then we’ll talk.

And I agree that Dee Jay belongs in upper-mid. Couple awesome matchups, and the rest are just solid. Some slightly uphill, some slightly downhill, but nothing that screams that he’s in trouble. I never feel like I don’t have SOME answer to what someone else has.

432

If you don’t understand how a game based on counter character playing is more balanced than a game based on tiers then you’ll never understand. A game based mostly on tiers doesn’t care about bad matchup’s, like 3S. While a game based on counter characters always has a counter for even the best characters in the game. You can have a mid tier character like Blanka and beat a top tier character like vega in ST becaus ethat a good match up for blanka imo. There’s a tier system and those top 3 characters (Chun li, yun, and ken) run that game with an iron fist. So much that every other match in a tournament is ken vs chun li or chun li vs chun li or yun vs ken/chun li. You get a makoto here and an urien there and 1 oro player and 5 akuma players and that’s most of the roster used in 3S.

While you will see a lot more characters used at a high level in og ST. Now old sagat, rog, vega, sim are always at the top because most of the top players are use to playing with those characters. There’s always a chun li, honda, deejay, guile in the mix of the top 8. Unlike 3s when 5 or 6 of the top 8 at evo2k8 was chun li’s.

It was 6-7 years ago people said chun li was one of the worst characters in ST. People also thought said the same shit about deejay. ST is the most balanced sf of all time. Yes more than sf2hf imo.

433

If ST is the most balanced game of all time every character should be winning tourneys.

434

Apparently you;ve never seen a hypermania tournament.

435

those tournies are single match/teams, so if you get shit like fei’s tech grab into crossup shenanigan into dizzy into death 2 rounds (http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=sj7yDTa4rkY <-- missed it at 2:17 ftw) you can knock out a player capitalizing on just a couple mistakes. 3s is even harder, cause there’s no TOD combos.

not that there’s anything wrong with that, but compared to a 2/3 match into 3/5 into 4/7 double elim US tournament, there’s no consistent way for a low tier character to win an awful matchup in a long set. (gian’s sim vs. fei is basically 9-1 if you look at how those matches played out)

this is why low tier characters in 3s never end up anywhere in a US tournaments, but in a quick match style tournament (SBO for example) you can get stuff like Q/hugo (kuroda/hayao) in 4th place.

So as Hogosha said, a low tier character is not going terribly far in a US tournament ever.

check kusumonda getting raped by ryu’s at EVO this year. no way is honda gonna win that ever. random tricks will only get you so far. a long set is honda’s death every time.

436

Tournaments results isn’t the fucking end all be all way to determend how good a fucking chjaracter is and I wish people would stop using that as the bench mark. Back in the day people though chun li was the worst character in ST. 6 years later she is mid tier with a lot of good match up’s in her favor against some of the top tier. 3 years ago deejay was bottom tier until afrolegend showed everyone the true way to play him.

Now people think deejay is one of the top mid tier characters in ST. That’s how balanced ST is people. How is that hard to see? If a few characters that was “THOUGHT” to be shit tier before and now they rise up to be high mid tier after years of playing proves that ST is the most balanced SF game ever. The only thing you youngin’s think about is tiers now of days. You don’t even try to learn the game. All ya’ll do when a game is released is come on srk asking 2 questions:

  1. Who’s the top tier in the game?
  2. Is there any vid’s on youtube of gameplay?

Yes there are tiers in ST and they are strong, but ST at it’s core is about counter character match up’s more than tiers imo. If you can’t see that then there’s no reason for me posting again. Your either blind or don’t understand what makes a game balanced and we will never see eye to eye.

437

For me a game is balanced when no match-up is worse then 4/6

*makes sweet love to Guilty Gear

438

Huh? Please explain that logic to me. How again is a game based on counter characters MORE balanced than a game that actually gives you a fighting chance no matter who you select? (HF) In a single elim tournament, you’re screwed if you choose the wrong character especially when it’s one and done. That’s balance?

Try explaining to me how some ST tournaments of the past actually practiced blind select because counter picking was such a problem. That’s balance?

The stronger characters in ST win because that’s exactly what they are… THE STRONGER CHARACTERS. Your character either has the tools to deal with other characters or he doesn’t. After that, it’s all about tricks and workaround tactics to make up for a characters deficiencies. That’s how tiers change over time. Players adjust to the tricks and tactics and characters rise or fall in the tier rankings because players begin to believe in the new ways of fighting a particular matchup - that is until someone comes up with something else to change it up yet again.

ST and Remix are fun games to me as I’m sure they are to many others but I don’t let that cloud my judgement over how balanced I think the game is.

~Decoy

439

Decoy for President.

440

The fact that characters like hawk and fei can compete against rog, vega, sim, o.sagat etc and characters like necro and q cant do jack shit against Chun says enough. I dont know what world you live in if you think 3s is more balanced than st.