Cammy was helped in some matchups. She has a decent chance against Sagat now, as both fireballs are unsafe vs Cammy.
I don’t think the Sim match is that tough. Does jumping short hit slides?
That said, if there is a patch, I’d like to see Cammy buffed up a bit more, but I do think she’s not the worst char in the game anymore. She mostly just needs a better spin knuckle to get around her bad matchup (have fierce version sped up and go through headbutts and Guile Low Forward)
I don’t know what makes the Dee Jay matchup so bad- upkicks perhaps?
Agreed, I am not afraid of her the way I used to be. I am not afraid of her jumping game. The only thing I have to REALLY watch for is the Hooligan Combo.
Don’t get me wrong… She can kill you really fast if there is an opening.
If someone beats you with Cammy in HD , it is because they are a good SF player and out played you with with better fundamentals. Not because HD Cammy is ‘more’ powerful. IMHO
Agreed. The new move that really helps him out is the new full body hit property on the clothes. The only person who uses it well, is Kurropi. Against many other player, I approach the match much like I did in ST an typically always pull out the set.
However, when the New Punch Clothesline is used. I have to SLOW my game down, and with that little bit of hesitation allows gief to get that much closer (which slowly adds up). Because, if stick out a wrong move, he gets a knock down while still moving forward. Which allows him to close the distance on my get up and strat a whole series of painful mind games…
Any power turtle is going to give Cammy problems (ie. Guile, Honda). Along with max out -> slide -> j.lp shenanigans from Deejay, he can also cross you the fuck up (which Cammy has a hard time dealing with already).
Well, I posted that in the original vanilla ST Cammy Thread and someone took it and put it in the Wiki. And yes, that helped a lot. It gave her options to get around the Fireball that pretty much no one else had. She was fast and if she jumped at Sim, she could stop his Low Fierces and Slides. So it was actually a good match for her.
Granted, it was discovered when I lost to Gian that Sim’s Down Back Roundhouse could be an effective anti-air against Cammy, but it had to be PERFECT distance to not be able to get kicked by Jumping Roundhouse. So she still had more options than 75% of the cast. But now, slides beat it EVERY TIME, so she’s stuck in the same boat as everyone else, which basically means that Sim has the advantage because he controls so much of the match now. And that sucks.
Yes, it indeed does suck. I was really rooting for her in this one. Cammy was actually my first love in SF2, before Dictator stole me (no homo). I’m still messing around with her and trying to find out anything that would make her viable. As it stands now though, it seems like you must really know your shit to be successful with her. I still think that weakening j. strong and making cannon spike unsafe on block was uncalled for.
Jump Jab doesn’t work. And Spin Knuckle is really slow. Smart Dhalsims will keep you out of the distance from where it’ll be effective up close, and with Jab Fireballs, you have to Spin Knuckle late, which gives him plenty of time to recover and Forward Kick you in the face before the Knuckle actually punches.
Fei’s recovery on his moves are so decieving its fucking ridiculous. You can catch people with light flame kick all day. Baits people into poking all day, everyday.
Only works on scrubs. Smart players know, and when you light flame kick remember that shit isn’t free any more. It can be punished and it WILL be punished.
i honestly think deejay is fucking good. i noticed some of you placed him in low mid tier. why do yall say that? he has a lot of good shit to mess with specially keeping cats in the corner. fireball/ slide shinanagins are pretty solid, and i also think standing roundhouse is pretty good to zone with cause it has some range and i think it hits ducking (you can block it while ducking of course). his combo game is crazy as well. and jab pokes are fucking fast too. cross up mid kicks is fucking solid as well. for real tho why is low low mid again?
oh ya slide goes under sonic booms too (i dont know if it was like that before, i never really used deejay in super st 2). :wgrin:
Deejay is definitely upper mid tier. He literally crushes half the cast, and only loses to Ryu, Sagat, and Sim (maybe Ken).
I’d say he beats chun, claw, honda, guile, dictator, cammy, fei, gief, thawk, blanka, clean (though not necessarily by much, in the case of claw).
He’s my secondary, primarily because of dealing with playing Sim against Blanka, Honda, claw and Chun on a regular basis is just too stressful for me - and Deejay is even with or beats them all (depending on who you talk to). Definitely the 4 most annoying characters
I think the SRK community should focus more on a match-up list than a tier list, cuz ST’s basically always been about match ups, not tiers.
In Vanilla ST, every character besides Akuma had good and bad matches, even the best of the best. (Chun-Li might be an exception.) I suspect that it’s almost the same with Remix ST.
and shouldn’t tier lists be based on match ups anyways?
Edit: To clarify, I know we’re talking about matches all thread, but it seems to be pretty much jumping the gun to say stuff about tiers when we don’t fully understand all the matches yet.
Tier lists are match-up based and all games are about match-ups unless it’s a team based metagame like MvC2.
But let’s be real people.
All fighting games degenerate into whoring the most viable characters sooner or later no matter how balanced the game is.
The characters with the best match-ups overall are the ones that get whored out. That’s the way it goes.
Saying that the game isn’t about tiers is just ludicrous. Match-ups relate to tiers. It’s all connected.
Boxer, Claw, Dic, Sim, Sagat, Blanka, Akuma, Guile and a few others looked very strong right out of the gate. The fact that I can name that many characters as strong characters does show this game is pretty damn balanced though.
tldr version.
Use a good character as your main and have one or two back-ups for crappy match-ups.
I also feel like Dee Jay is really being slept on. What I am about to say is preliminary opinions, because I don’t feel like I’ve played every match-up enough to be 100% spot on with all of them. But, here’s my take so far.
Vs. Ryu: This is still a loss. 4-6 for Ryu, could get worse. It is just difficult to get in on Ryu. You can’t beat him at range. MGU only helps but so long in the fireball war. The most you can really hope to last is 3 Hadokens before you have to jump. Ryu can’t really jump at Dee Jay or move in on him safely, but why does he need to again?
Vs. Ken: I feel like Dee Jay has a slight edge, maybe 5.5-4.5, but this could end up being even. Compared to Ryu, Ken has worse fireballs and that’s all that matters. Like Ryu, Ken can’t jump at Dee Jay and the only thing he has to help him get in better than Ryu is the faster hurricane and good standing roundhosue. The advantage that Ken does have over Ryu is that once Dee Jay is in, Ken’s superior DPs make it riskier to apply Dee Jay shenanigans.
Vs. Honda: I want to say this is a 6-4 win for Dee Jay, but I really suck at the fight :razzy: Dee Jay has the upkicks, standing strong, etc. to knock Honda out of anything airborne and Dee Jay can throw a nice slow Max Out to be able to punish Honda for bad jab headbutts. Jab headbutt does keep this from being a 7-3 fight.
Vs. Chun: This is where I feel different. I think this is at least an even fight, 5-5. In my mind, I want to say it is an advantage for Chun. But I can’t explain how. Both have similar, charge-based, fast release projectiles. Both have stupid pokes. I know Dee Jay can anti-air Chun with standing strong, but I don’t know what normals Chun uses to anti-air Dee Jay. I need to learn more about STHD Chun.
Blanka: 7-3 win for Dee Jay. This might be Blanka’s toughest fight. Stand strong works good to swat Blanka’s jumps. Dee Jay can spam rapid low jabs to snuff Blanka Balls and Slide attempts. That leaves two ways to approach. Jumping, which loses to up kicks, or walking up and sweeping Dee Jay while his spams low jabs. But, Dee Jay has three good counters to this walk up sweep strategy: low strong, dread kicks, or just throw a max out.
Zangief: In my head, I think this is 6.5-3.5 or better for Dee Jay. But I’ve been flat outplayed by too many ‘Giefs. This could end up a better number for the big man. Once again, good ol’ standing strong works good for Gief. Throw slow, well placed, Max Outs with mixed up timings so you don’t get hit with green hand or lariat, use sweep to punish whiffed green hands, and slide to punish whiffed lariats that were too close. The #1 goal is to build up super, then if 'Gief does succeed in making you block a jump-in, you have an extra tool to get him off of you.
Guile: I’m calling this 5.5-4.5 I feel like it could turn into a better Dee Jay fight, but I need more practice. The main differences in this fight are that Guile can follow his projectile for better pressure than Dee Jay can, while Dee Jay can anti-air and out poke Guile better w/o having a charge. What I want to see is how well can Guile stop a jumping Dee Jay w/o a flash kick. This will be the difference in an even fight or a flat out Dee Jay win.
Dhalsim: 4-6, Sim. To tell you the truth, I have played this match all of twice, maybe, so I’m not sure how well anything works. I’m just calling it 4-6 because I’m taking Pokken’s word for it and hope I can play a good Sim soon :sad:
Cammy: 6-4 Dee Jay. The one thing I’m unsure of is how well do low jabs or low shorts stuff cannon drills. I’ve seen Gief low jabs snuff a cannon drill clean, so in my mind Dee Jay’s should work. But I haven’t tried. Otherwise, standing strong works again. Zone Cammy with Max Outs, low pokes if she tries to walk up, standing strong/fierce or upkicks when she jumps.
T. Hawk: 6-4 for Dee Jay. Similar to Zangief. I need to play more experienced Hawks. I’ve played a few who just took him up in STHD and don’t have a lot of prior Hawk knowledge. But, roundhouse upkicks and ol’ reliable standing strong knock Hawk out of jump-ins. I need more practice anti-airing the Hawk dive. If Dee Jay can do this with a normal, then the fight gets even worse.
Fei Long: 6-4 Dee Jay. This could get worse, actually. The key is keeping your down charge to stuff chicken wing kicks. But unlike vanilla ST, if Fei does get a chicken kick through your defenses, it isn’t such a big deal, since there is no more chicken wing, s.fierce xx Rekkas combo. Other than that, Fei really doesn’t have much that I see for Dee Jay. Try to bait a whiff then hit is with a Rekka is but so good of a strategy. Dee Jay’s zoning wins out.
Balrog: This is another fight I go against the grain on. 6-4 Dee Jay wins clean. Like most of Rog’s fights, this goes his way in a hurry if he builds meter fast. But, w/o meter, it is very easy to throw a slow max out, follow it, and punish Rog’s jumps with stand strong or fierce, or punish Rog after headbutting through fireballs by using Dee Jay’s standing roundhouse. Dee Jay is also one character Balrog actually has to worry about getting crossed up by. I believe this fight is about as bad as a Balrog match will get.
Vega: I’m saying 5-5 for now. The off the wall crap isn’t what keeps it even. Dee Jay has answers in short up kicks, stand strong, or jump back jab/roundhouse. Which option you choose depends on what side you think Vega is going to try and steer his wall dive to. On the ground, you can beat Vega’s slide with low strong or dread kicks. Vega’s own low strong is tricky to deal with. I’m not sure how well Dee Jay’s standing strong stuffs Vega, nor do I know how well Dee Jay can jump in on Vega when Vega doesn’t have a charge. I’ve had good success playing this match, but I feel like I need more experience to truly understand it.
Sagat: 4.5-5.5 for Sagat. I’ve been smacking around lesser Sagats online, but I still feel like when I come up on a really good Sagat, I’m not going to get away with jumping at him. Ths fight might get closer to even, but Sagat’s tiger shots are what matter, and those are definitely worse (i.e. easier for Dee Jay to get in on) than O.Sagat’s were. So this fight could get closer to even.
Bison: 5.5-4.5 in favor of Dee Jay. This could get worse. Dee Jay can poks all of Bison’s pokes from the right distances, he can low fierce Bison’s scissors, and he can standing strong Bison’s jump ins. But look at the risk vs. reward. If Dee Jay’s timing or spacing is slightly off, Bison is going to get more out of a hit than Dee Jay. I almost want to make this 6-4 anyway, because Dee Jay can jump at Bison all day, unless Bison has time to get airborne and use his strong air to air game. But, Bison does have the slightly invincible Devil’s Reverse which could get him out of these tight spots.
Akuma: 4-6 for Akuma. Dee Jay doesn’t have it any worse or any better than most characters. Dee Jay hates fighting Ryu, and Akuma’s keep out game is just as good, if not better. Something of interest is that if akuma uses an air fireball to get in, and it isn’t a cross up, Dee Jay can MGU and beat or trade (and against Akuma, trade = win for you) with almost all of Akuma’s jump in options.
Well, Chun vs Dee Jay. You can’t really up the upkick as Dee Jay. Chun’s headstomp cleans it unless you get the angle perfect. I rely on this a lot. It’s 6-4 Chun.
I do think Dee Jay is slept on though. He’s quite good, and that short dread kick busting sweeps is a nice gimmicky bonus.
Short upkicks beat everything chun does if you time them late. At least in my experience. You can also reversal block the headstomp and then punish it
I will differ on a few matchups–
Dhalsim is 7-3 Dhalsim. I main dhalsim, and have played hundreds of matches against Afro’s Deejay, and several other good ones. Dhalsim is definitely in control in this matchup if you play correctly. (I’ve even won about 5 matches against Afro:P). Deejay has no chance except to do shenanigans, and the jab fireball trap is still damned hard to escape.
Cammy and Fei are both 7-3 Deejay, or worse. These characters literally have no answer to maxout zoning, and all of Fei’s ground moves lose cleanly to either d.strong or d.fierce, timed correctly. I would buy fei being 8-2 Deejay honestly.
Bison is probably closer to 6-4 Deejay. His normals trade or beat most of Bison’s from most ranges, and upkicks beat anything he does pretty much in the air (as does jumping jab and jumping roundhouse).
Claw was even with Deejay in the last game. Given the changes to not being able to charge store flipkicks backwards, the walldive shenanigans being gone, and Deejay getting much easier crossup combos, I think Deejay wins this matchup 6-4. Just my preliminary opinion here.
Iceman: While I completely agree with your general idea, I have to go the opposite way and say Balrog wins this 5.5/4.5 or maybe 6/4. The main thing that helps here is the fact that Deejay can’t crouch under far fierce. As such, you can use that move at will to trade with max outs and lock him down in the corner.
I think Rog’s j.fierce/roundhouse beats the slide as well, not sure what Deejay has to stop that. And I seem to recall reversal upkicks whiffing on some of his pressure strings, but maybe they just used the wrong version.
The most recent Japanese matchup chart with top players put this one at 7-3 Rog in ST. I didn’t agree with that, but I do think even with the nerfs in Remix he still has the edge.
