fake slide and fake fireball seem to work just about all the time for me
but this shouldnt change the teirs at all. It just adds shenanigans that people have to get used to.
I don’t know, I feel that in HDR Honda, Guile, and Blanka are a very strong force. Maybe not top-tier, but certainly somewhere high up there. These are just my 2 cents from all the matches i’ve had since the game has been released.
Also, Guile is not good just because of the new OH, but over all he just seems really strong.
Oh yeah, and sim seems around the same still, even with the nerfed range on his strong throw, he still seems just as good.
Fake Slide has potential to make Dic better, Im not sure anyone can say that fake slide into throw isn’t a legitimate mindgame (albeit not a major one) especially when he has other tools that work well at the same ranges as Fake slide, also like Ultra David said earlier you can use it to increase his punishing damage potential vs. whiffs, so the benefits are two-fold.
To me, the Fake Slide is AMAZING. And this isn’t even online, this is offline. And, oddly enough, I think Fake Slide works BETTER against smart players than it does on scrubs.
Basically, just use it like this: Stand Forward and Roundhouse for Bison is buff. Just keep using those moves against scrubs. They’ll get nailed by it all the time if they keep mashing buttons and what not. So play your normal Bison game against scrubs and players who aren’t as good. They tend to mash buttons a lot more, so the Fake Slide won’t work.
But against smarter, the Fake Slide becomes so incredible. Basically, the smarter the player is, the more likely they KNOW when to not touch a button because of your Stand Roundhouse. Now, you can Stand Roundhouse OR Fake Slide and Throw. That’s the mixup. That’s where it gets really good.
I’ve been using it a LOT with great results, as have been the people I play against. And this is OFFLINE, so it has nothing to do with lag. It’s actually a GREAT new tool for Bison, and is nowhere near being the parlor trick I think it was meant to be.
- James
That could be possible. It may be that his strong and diverse normals are enough to keep him tops. I also continue to suspect that he may be better than most of the cast vs. Akuma.
I definitely think he’ll end up being in the top 8. Top 4 though? I’m not so sure. Not that this really means that much mind you, since the tiers seem closer than ever. Still, this is the tier thread…
On the surface, I’d say this sounds like a valid argument. However, I don’t think it’s as simple as that. To me, this is like saying that guile’s flashkick isn’t very effective because good players don’t jump in on guile. The thing is, that’s exactly the point. I think at high-level play, the super is mostly used to scare and limit their opponents options. I also think that’s why the Japanese don’t even seem to use it for chip damage much. They just keep the threat going the whole round.
So, building meter slower already hurts him a little. But also, there are situations where opponents wouldn’t have jumped in on sim before, and yet now they can. I do think that changes things a bit.
Respectfully, I must completely disagree here. Does he still win most of the matches he won and lose the couple he lost in ST? Perhaps. But has he only gotten worse in one matchup? Not even close to it, IMHO.
Here’s a quick breakdown of how things look to me after a week or so of play:
Ryu - Harder: Not only does fake fireball help bait sim into doing errant drills, but it also helps ryu’s mixup options when he’s in close.
Ken - Harder: I don’t think this matchup changed a ton, but I think slightly better SRKs and slightly better hurricane kicks help Ken a bit. If nothing else, his combo potential is a little better. This could end up being even though.
Honda - Even: There’s a whole bunch of slight buffs and nerfs here. For now, I think they even things out. If someone wants me to go into detail on these, just ask.
Chun - Easier: It might not be a walk in the park, but I think she’s easier to deal with now. I think her nerfed super and nerfed flipkick really hurt her here. Lightning legs are easier to do, but being able to hit them easier may cancel that out a bit. Her new SBKs could potentially help her a lot in this match, but I have yet to see them be put to good use. Oh, and sim’s new up-flames don’t hurt either.
Blanka - Harder: The timing to his ball back is tighter. Not a huge deal at all, but it does factor. More than that, I think easier electricity helps him a lot here. His better super, better rainbow roll, and better roll-to-bite potential also helps. Also, I think his tick throw game has also gotten just *slightly *better due to Sim’s nerfed MP throw range, since pianoing reverse throws is now harder.
Gief - Harder: Gief has gotten nothing but better in this match. Low hitting lariats, better hop, ground super, etc. They all help. PS - I don’t care what anyone says, I dont think this match was a complete sleepwalk for Sim even in ST. You have to *really *be on point. The margin for error was low in ST. And it’s lower in remix.
Guile - Harder: Guile has also gotten nothing but better in this match. Punching under booms, sliding under booms, and jumping over booms is all more dangerous. Also, don’t forget Guile’s new combos and occasional overhead if he gets close.
Hawk - Harder: He used to do really well against Hawk. But with all of Hawk’s changes, I think this is a far, far, far tougher matchup. I refuse to believe that any Sim can AA 100% of Hawks dives. So whether you get hit or block, he’s gonna get close at some point. That alone turns this match on it’s ear.
Cammy - Even: I’m only calling this even because I’m not sure what to call it yet. Could be better could be worse. The subtleties of both of their changes aren’t apparent to me yet.
Fei - Even: Same thing as Cammy. Too hard to say at this point.
DJ - Harder: Same prob with punching under booms as Guile. DJ’s MGU cancelling fireballs helps him a bit against a good corner trap Sim can play on him. Sim’s super nerfs also seem to hurt more here than in most matchups.
Barlog - Easier: This is the only match where I can’t think of a single thing that helps boxer or hurts Sim. None of sim’s nerfs seem to matter much. Meanwhile just about all of boxers nerfs hurt him in this match. Plus, sim being able to reversal with super actually matters here.
Vega - Easier: His wall dive doesn’t knock down. Plus, better up flames. The end.
Sagat - Harder: I assume we’re all pretending N.Sagat never existed. Ok, so O.Sagat vs R.Sagat. The biggest nerf from O.Sagat is probably not being able to cancel the 2nd hit of standing LK. Not cancelling st.MK and fast tiger shots probably helped a smidge here too. In exchange for that, he can tech throws, has a decent super, a juggle TK for positioning, and a cross-up! Plus, the range on Sagat’s j.RH makes you really feel the burn with sim’s super hitbox nerfs. All in all, I think this match got a lot harder for sim. Does he still win it? Probably. Is it the rape it used to be? I don’t think so.
Bison - Harder: Bison got nothing but buffs, how could it not be harder? So those all help to some degree. Also, I really think worse super and throws hurt sim here a fair bit.
Now don’t get me wrong. With a big list like that, it may sound like I’m trying to insinuate that Sim sucks now or something. That’s not it at all. Keep in mind, that just because I think a given match got harder, that may only mean it went from 7-3 in sims favor to 6-4 or something.
So, I still think he’s a solid character. But I do think that over half of his matchups have gotten harder. And I think that could end up pushing him out of top tier and into somewhere in the mid tier. Probably solid mid to upper-mid if I had to guess right now.
I just don’t think any of the changes to the characters mentioned above affect the underlying matchup at all or how Dhalsim can exploit the other char.
-Ken’s HK was and is a complete non-factor, outside of jump jab->air hk shenanigans but air hks didn’t receive a change.
-Blanka’s rainbow roll continues to be a nonfactor, and while it may be hard to hit a st. fierce/st. rh after a hit/blocked roll compared to Vanilla, st. forward is just as easy as before. Throw range nerf is moot since I doubt I’ve ever been able to throw Blanka in the first place!
-Gief matchup is the same to me, and yes I agree with you this match is not easy. I’ve played djfrijoles’s gief with Sim and I have to concentrate the whole match because Gief’s “defensive mixup”: predictive cr. rh beats all of Sim’s normals, but when I go to fb to counter, he’ll go for lariat, and round and round we go. Plus d+short/d+forward knees beating every anti-air is kind of retarded. That being said, low hitting lariat…I’m not really sure I see a difference here considering most good gief players weren’t going to be randomly starting a lariat within a cr. punch’s range.
-Fei: still owned. Sim already was immune to the old chicken wing stuff because of short slide, but now that CW sucks even more, and rekkas continue to be not that useful against him…
DJ: The MGU change is a good buff, but I don’t know if its enough…I’ve played against some good DJs online, but all of them still play him like vanilla and don’t use MGU at all outside of combos, so count me in the “don’t know” as well
- Sagat: Match is even easier. Now that Sagat’s fb is nerfed he has to try to actually attack, Sim can worry less about high fb/low fb mixups, which is the hardest part for me to figure out when counter-drilling. Sagat can’t jump worth shit against Sim. From 3/4 screen out he gets a free cr. mp (hit)->st. hp (blocked) for his troubles to take damage and get pushed back out. Up close, slides own for free. yaya said 9-1 on the nohoho chart for the Sim-N. Sagat matchup, and I think its still the same.
Well just to summarize, I think he still goes at least 6-4 (down from 7-3) for over 80% of his matchups, so that alone should keep him in the top tier. The other chars may have gotten better, but they still have a lot more weak matchups
That being said, I definitely agree with you on the Hawk and Bison matchups getting worse. I never understood people saying that Sim wins the latter matchup in Vanilla ST. Bilskirnir was owning me up, and there didn’t seem to be any angle that I could drill/mummy for free like most guides would tell you to do because I would just get st. jabbed or cr. fierced. An even BETTER st. jab and escapes to noogie traps with devil’s reverse…I didn’t think it was possible for me to hate any character more than Vega, but Bison takes the cake…
I guess I’m just not quite as optimistic as you are about those upgrades not helping those characters much. I think most of the problem is that everyone is still playing this game like ST with the occasional trick thrown in, instead of fully integrating these upgrades into their main gameplan.
Regardless, I think we both agree that while some matchups may be less in his favor that he’s still solid. The question is, can he still win tournaments as well? I guess only time will tell…
I think Bison is a weird matchup for Sim. It seems like ~90% of decent Bison players play this match in a fairly standard way. Against those people, it seems mostly straight-forward to beat, or at least go even with them. The other 10% though make the match seem completely different. They use a handful of lesser know tactics and shenanigans that shutdown a lot of your moves and add a lot more guessing into your play. It’s almost like they add a complete second layer onto the match.
Also, since Bison is so mobile and has so many different shenanigans, there’s a lot of personal style that comes into play. Based on the few really good Bison’s I’ve played, they all play the match quite differently. Some of the tricks are the same but the flow is different. With so many deadly options happening so quickly, it often feels tough to adapt to.
The sad truth is that I’m probably on the flip side of this. I’m one of the 90% of the Sim players that puts up a respectable fight, but fails to incorporate the advanced strategies. If you watch some of Gians videos, it’s almost mesmerizing how precisely and consistently he shuts down devils reverses and head stomps. He’s also very precise at simply st.LP Bison out of his jump-ins before he can ever even start the pressure strings. And in a recent video, it looks like he may even have a way out of the “inescapable” corner trap now. Crazy!
Hmm, maybe we should move this talk to the Sim thread?
Sim definately dropped. (Which is ok, every top teir character was weakend). I think the biggest increase in difficult match-ups go to GUILE and Dictator.
These two characters when played by a skilled and smart player easily have the advantage over an equally skilled Sim. Their new buffs in combination with Sims nerfs tilt the matches in thier favor. -1- Guile can ALWAYS trade hits and run away. If Guile knows the match up, Sim wil NEVER get a clean hit. -2- There is no way to press an advantage on DIC, he has too many options and to many escapes.
Against the of the rest of the cast you have to modify your play a little bit. Sim has to take some chances here and there, slow his zones down, and let the other player make some mistakes. He can’t controll the tempo of a match as much as he used to. Don’t get me wrong, he is still not weak by any means. However, he is seriously knocked down a notch or two in the tier debate.
IMO, He now has two unfavored match-ups against Guile and Dic. Only time will let us know if I am correct or not. 
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Sims slide under booms still hurts Guile ALOT, Sim can force Guile into jumping, and a good Sim will rape Guile on jumps every time.
Sorry to sound like an jerk, but I bet you don’t play against any REALLY good guiles.
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Good guile’s will NEVER jump at Sim… NEVER. Unless your throwing FBs like a idiot or throwing out a lot of cr.punches.
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A good Guile player will never throw a sonic boom within slide range. They hop back with back + MK once or twice to get out side of slide range and then consider throwing a SB.
If the Guiles you play are jumping in a manner where Sim can just throw out a AA to counter and throw SBs within slide distance. They are total 100% bona fide scrubs.
Here a list of good guile players who do not jump in and do not throw slide range sonic booms. Play them in HD with Sim and see how well your strategies work.
brian (brian xbl) Haven’t even played him yet, but considering how good he was in ST. I know he is a monster now.
Wolf_1 (frankdux) Super solid guile player.
xrolento (xrolento) Old school player plays a very tight presure game.
I disagree with this. Hurricane Kick was my secret weapon vs. Dhalsim with Ken. I think it’s great that it goes farther now for the fight.
But then again, NO ONE played against Sim the way I did with Ken in vanilla ST. Because it never made sense, and it seems like it should never, ever, ever work. I’ll post up my silly Ken strat against Sim, and sadly it ACTUALLY works really well, more so than it should. And a lot of it relies on the Hurricane Kick.
Ready for this? This is the dumbest strategy you’ll ever read in your life. Here we go. Okay? Ready? I present to you… my master strategy vs. Dhalsim for Ken:
Take Short Hurricane Kick, Forward Hurricane Kick, Roundhouse Hurricane Kick, Jab DP, and Strong DP, and pick one at random, and throw it out. Repeat. Then end.
Seriously.
Dhalsim needs five different counters to all five of these moves, and the wrong one always leaves him at a disadvantage. And if you take the time to try and play with intelligence, it’s easy for Dhalsim to counter them because he can read you. But if you throw them out at random, literally empty your brain and toss them out with NO rhyme or reason, it’s REALLY tough for Dhalsim to stop it. This fight is still in Dhalsim’s favor by FAR, but this has been the most effective strat I’ve had vs. Dhalsim. The idea of it is that Jumping at Sim it 100% futile, as he can ALWAYS slide you and push you back out to stop your Jump. So I choose to advance by other means.
He can only counter a whiffed Jab DP with a quick Standing Forward that misses against a whiffed Strong DP. He can only counter a whiffed Strong DP with a wait and then attack, which won’t work on a Jab DP. The two of them start so similarly, that he cannot figure out which one it is and counter it properly by reaction. The Hurricane Kick puts you closer, so if he’s concentrating on the whiffed DPs, it throws him for a loop. And having three different HK kicks landing at different times and places really sucks, and leads to a lot of landing Jab DPs after the HK is done, especially if you choose them at random so he has no clue as to which one you are doing. And now that the Strong DP knocks down on the first hit, this strategy will work even better, IMO, because the only weakness I’ve had is randomly nailing limbs with the Strong DP but not knocking Sim down.
This sounds like a really stupid strategy, but give it a shot. All you are trying to do is score a knock-down, then go for a ToD cross-up Combo (Forward, Fierce, Roundhouse HK Kick… which I THINK will still dizzy in this game). And then never let up on pressure. If he manages to push you out, do it again.
- James
I gotta agree with Fatboy on this. Realy good guile players can punish your ducking punches and slides even in vanilla ST.
Guile’s standing LK beats sims punches. Also, not only does back sobat get them away from you if you slide, I think it actually beats the slide on top of it if you’re close enough. If you slide they can also jump straight up and come down with fierce punch to nail you.
Seriously, I think the japanese are crazy in their tier table putting Ryu and Sim at advantage and massive advantage respectively against Guile.
Ryu:
Shinkuu’s utility is massively downgraded against Guile since he’ll recover in time to block outside anywhere just outside of his cr. fwd range. I think backfist is pretty ridiculous in its hitbox, but whatever, that’s probably my Ryu bias speaking. :mad:
Brian was right in his increduility: any expert Guile can keep up in a firefight with Ryu, and simply jump back to avoid ones that he can’t match and keep the same positional advantage.
Sim:
There is no way this match is a 8.5-1.5 match in Vanilla. Guile has an answer for almost everything as SweetJV mentioned above
Dhalsim owns Guile in ST because dhalsim doesn’t have to take any risks. He is completely safe in reaction to anything that guile does. Guile can never jump and can never do sonic booms within range of dhalsims ducking punches. If dhalsim is too far and guile sonic booms, dhalsim can yoga fire or jump. Eventually guile will most likely be hit with a ducking punch under a boom and will have to go on the offensive before time runs out.
A stupid Guile gets owned in ST. A good guile can hold his own. It depends on who’s playing him. I think no one is debating that Sim definitely had an advantage in ST. However we are talking about HD.
With the 4 buffs they gave guile (RH flash, improved super, overhead, and better booms (against Sim)), the pendulums has swung (too much) the other way.
Poetic Justice? Maybe…
But I tell you what: Guile and Dictator are the only two characters that make me sweat HD.
I think we will find Guile in the top in the long run. He is very well rounded now. He has no inherent weakness/ mismatches.
If so, could any one point it out? I am honestly open for input.
Ryu1999 was talking about the matchup in vanilla ST.
To me, the problem with guile being top, is all the other top guys give him big problems. Aside from akuma, Sim, and Claw still give him a lot of grief (not as bad as before, but i have to work pretty hard to win those). Sagats even now, but fighting Blanka is just plain ridiculous. Its harder to punish him, he can get in easier, And if you get mixed up, your basically going to die. His rh flash doesn’t beat out slides as reliably as it should. Blanka can spam that shit all day, with little fear of it being punished. Neutral lk still beats it, but losing your charge to beat that move isn’t too worth it. And even if you rh fk a slide, you just go back to neutral (ok, he eats a meaty sb too). And the towards + rh kick going over blanka when he is crouching is fucking dumb too. But on the other hand he can beat any mid range jump in with rh fk, so if your just patient, you can just wait for him to jump in and save you the trouble (but if you fuck up, your pretty much boned). Also its still almost impossible to punish him jumping over a boom… I’d say its now Guile’s worst match with the odds about 7/3 (it feels 8/2) in blankas favor. But wtf do i know.
In fairness though, Id say that guile is the top of high, but just didn’t make the cut for top. If he had a way to beat slides while keeping his charge for boom, and not risking a rh fk attempt, then his problems would be solved. And the world would explode from awesome!
I have to agree with fatboy on Bison (Dictator) being scary here. I mean, he didn’t lose anything, and he only got better. And he was already good. By that, I don’t see how he could not be in the top.
Agreed! But his post was in response to my post (and SweetJV’s) about Guile V. Sim in HD. :lovin: At least how I interpreted it. No harm!