The inevitable tier thread

Classic Fighting Games SSF2T: HD Remix
2281

Aqua-
I’ll answer this because I don’t care that you asked for a specific person’s response.

I don’t do exact numbers, but I think Fei is easier to beat with Bison in HD. He can’t corner trap Bison the way he could in ST with fierce, wing. If you go get cornered in HD you have a few options to get out (not including super). The rest of the match is similar in both games. The invincible wing and devil’s reverse of HD are not a factor. The better standing jab helps Bison a little, the faster rekka helps Fei a little.

I have never lost in a tournament to Fei or O.Fei in ST and haven’t lost to one in HD either. I have also not been consistently beat in casuals by a Fei player in either game. It could be that there is too small a sample of quality Fei players including those dating back to the release of ST to make my case, but I have competed against the known and unknown ones.

Irrepressible-
From my experience in ST, if you ever see an O.Sagat lose to Guile or O.Guile more than once, please euthanize that player. It is nothing but a constant battle for Guile while Sagat yawns tiger. In HD, it gets a little more interesting, but not really. The main difference is Sagat has a new comfort zone that is not too hard to maintain. In addition, he can tech and gets a useful super.

We can test these out in HD, classic mode, GGPO, arcade or whatever you fancy. Maybe we will learn something new.

  • Pete
2282

Just so it looks like I haven’t disappeared or anything, in discussing Sagat vs. Guile, it seemed very strange to me that anyone would suggest that a motion projectile character wouldn’t be able to force a charge projectile character to have to jump. It does make me wonder, though…hasn’t this been the case with every matchup like this since World Warrior? The only character that I can think of that might not be able to out-fireball charge characters would be HF Chun Li.

Anyway, my take on it…Sagat forces Guile to jump a bit more than Guile does as long as he keeps the Low Tiger Shot pressure on. If he allows Guile to start advancing behind Sonic Booms, his only plausible counter is to Tiger Knee over them and pray that Guile either gets caught by the knee or allows him to land and either throw or Tiger Uppercut him. I would actually advocate starting at Guile’s optimum jumping distance with Sagat and baiting jumps and/or throwing Low Tiger Shots, mixing it up with walking up to outside of Guile’s cr.:mk: range and throwing Low Tiger Shots and forcing Guile to try catching me with something. Sagat doesn’t really need his High Tiger Shot in this one…unless Guile tries to jump straight up over a Low Tiger Shot. So, the matchup ends up becoming a zoning/poking mix-up fest for Sagat, while Guile has to anticipate an opening in Sagat’s zoning game and try to out-poke Sagat with cr.:mk: and/or gamble for a knockdown. Once he gets it, meaty Sonic Booms and crossup safe-jump attempts will abound as he smothers Sagat into the corner. Up close is where Guile can keep the pressure on and smother Sagat…but the danger of the Tiger Uppercut is even more present there.

I think 6-4 for Sagat is an accurate call on this matchup. Guile can’t play defensively here and he has to get past Sagat’s Low Tiger Shots in order to do damage. Sagat can keep out of range of Guile’s effective Tiger Shot counters and somewhat force Guile to do what he wants him to do. If Sagat slips up in the projectile war for frame advantage, that’s Guile’s in.

2283

Maybe it’s just me, but Guile’s pokes feel alot more beefy, however O. Sagat’s Tigershots were not better then Ce. Sagat’s, they are both 11-37 on startup and recovery, hence why they were so powerful, better recovery by a vast margin then all other motion projectiles.

Again, I’m taking reference from NKI’s Frame Data site.

2284

I think the Sagat matchup is very winnable for Guile, he just has to not be predictable with jump-ins over low Tigers. Neutral jump is apparently very effective, but it all comes down to whether Guile can get Sagat within his cr. short range. At that point you keep the Flash Kick charged against Tiger Knees, and cr. short Tiger Shots.

**I still think Sagat gets a slight advantage here. FYI - I have an old guide based on Super Turbo, one section is devoted to matchup strategies. It lists the Sagat matchup as one of Guile’s hardest. Just saying. **

ATTN: REALFRESHOJ
I’ve read many of your posts, you’re very knowledgable. Just curious: who are you? Have you won tourneys or anything? Great work on the FAQ’s.

2285

I just look at it like this…

…what do you have to do against CPU Sagat to win with Guile? My matchup analysis pretty much falls in line with that…except for the predictable Tiger Shot spamming the CPU does. I’m not at all saying that the CPU is the end-all-be-all of fighting machines, but that fighting the CPU does give you some insight into what Guile needs to be able to reliably do in order to win. If you have to rely on a CPU pattern to win, there’s a fair chance that playing a person that knows how to mix it up will show you who has the actual advantage.

2286

:annoy: :arazz:

LOL, yeah the reason I asked Zaspacer was because I played him a couple of matches last night for the first time, so I wanted to get his input on the matchup after we fought.

A couple of pages back we had a discussion about this and some people think Bison has an advantage over Fei which I disagree with. I think it’s an even fight, however I’m starting to believe Fei has the advantage. It just takes a knockdown to put Bison in a bad position. The only options he has to get out of CW lockdown is to throw, scissor kick, or Super. So he has to guess correctly.

LK CW makes it very hard for Bison to grab Fei, not to mention if Bison tries to do anything like jump in the air, and devil reverse, he will get juggled by CW plus Flame Kick for alot of damage. The only thing I fear of Bison is his TOD combo.

I pretty much fight against Bison like I do against Chun Li. Except Bison has a slightly better chance of escaping.

I also asked Mavrick to give his insight since we played a ton of matches, but I don’t know if he saw my posts. I’ll send him a PM to see if he can chime in.

Do you have Xbox Live? Maybe we can get some matches in.

Hopefully I can change your mind. :wgrin:

2287

Guile loses to Sagat in HDR, and he loses even worse in ST.

But you know, that’s just, like, my opinion, man

2288

Sagat cant stop guile from closing the gap, granted that guile takes plenty of tiger shot chip damage, but guile inevitably gains ground and more often than make makes up for the chip damage.

If guile mixes following booms, jumping in, and just careful slow advancing he gets in. The match up is one a few matchups where its pays for guile to be on the offensive

2289

The point of this thread is to determine who is better then who and more importantly why. So for you to say it’s futile to debate why character x is better then y solely due to the matchup having more to do with player ability then the characters themselves is counter productive to getting any closer to understanding what if any advantages y may have over x.

Why stop at only making a post or two? as long as there’s interest in the subject currently being discussed (and there is obviously) to not continue said discussion simply because you don’t want to read it, have no interest, or whatever seems a little…wrong.

I’m polite to everyone unless given a good reason not to be. Completely disregarding my posts which I have taken the time and effort to go into detail about and use cvs2 in any capacity to augment one’s own argument about anything hdr related is one of those good reasons. Though I’m curious as to what makes you say I’m ill-informed? By the looks of it others agree with at least some of what I say so are they ill-informed as well? I’d like to know what you think I’m incorrect about so in the future I don’t look stupid.

That being said I do understand how you must feel seeing a thread you enjoy reading being reduced to “no my opinionz is better den urz man!!111111!!!”

Very well put:tup:

True, but you being one of the best guile’s I know makes me give your opinion more weight then most others

…so what tier is green guile? =P

If sagat mixes up his fb’s well guile will be forced to jump at which point a smart player will dp him out of the air cleanly which knocks back guile and forces to take chip from fb’s trying to get in again and like OJ said even if he does he still has that dp to worry about.

IMO it’s easier to predict how many fb’s guile will take before he inevitably jumps and to punish that expected jump then it is to sustain a losing fb war, find a safe opening, and mixup his pokes well enough to stay closeup without being knocked down.

I got a te stick last night so I’ll be glad to play your guile tonight however, I’m terrible with square gate so until I get an octagon to replace it I won’t be anywhere near 100%, at the evo vst tourney cigarbob nearly destroyed my o.sagat with geif…not that the result would have been much different had I been using 8way gate but you get my point.

2290

Well, much like Dictator vs. Blanka, my thoughts are that I need to learn the matchup.

BlueTallCans’s Blanka beats my Dictator.
Your Fei Long beats my Dictator.

Does Blanka or Fei Long beat Dictator?
Does Dictator beat Blanka or Fei Long?
Are they a draw?
I have NO IDEA.

I don’t have the knowledge on how to “properly” approach the matchup, and I don’t have the experience to recognize my opponent’s strats.

DeMavrick has been very helpful in the HDR Dictator vs. Blanka matchup, but I still don’t “get it” fully and I definitely don’t have it down on an experience level.

But right now, BlueTallCans Blanka beats Zaspacer’s Dictator.
And The Aqua Snakes Fei Long beats Zaspacer’s Dictator.

I either need:

  1. HOURS of repetitive practice in the macthup vs. each of you, or
  2. to do a very thorough and intensive study of the ST vids of the matchup

I REALLY prefer just to “netdeck” “the best” strats for each matchup rather than fumbling around trying to figure them out myself.
Fumbling takes lots of time and often the results get tossed when you learn the “best strat” from someone/some group more familiar with the matchup.

So please don’t take my games vs. you as anything more than me first winging it on general experience, and then me experimenting to see what would happen if I tried different things.

With both you and BlueTallCans I lose to pressure lock/down throw/bite/combo loops.
This speaks to me not recognizing or defending against opponents getting in or me doing botched attacks that help set my opponent up, and then me not knowing how to best get out.
In both mathcups, I have no idea about:

  1. proper spacing (for opponent or me)
  2. counters
  3. “who is the beatdown”
  4. what normals to use
  5. methods to be relied on to deliver damage
  6. etc.

If I don’t know spacing, that means you can move into your optimum position (and stay there) without any contesting from me.
If I don’t know counters, that means you an do paper tiger set-ups that I just fold to. (like T.Hawk’s Fierce Splash vs. Dictator)

If you want to teach me the matchup as you know it (in words and in-game), I am sure I will be a much better opponent for you. :slight_smile:
If you don’t, then I will just be bad practice/positive-reinforcement for your take on the matchup.

2291

Off topic warning…please skip if you don’t care… :slight_smile:

That’s just it. I’m knowledgeable. :slight_smile: It’s my nerves (read: applied knowledge and execution) that need work! :slight_smile:

I don’t have that much tourney experience in general. Mostly local stuff…and all of it after ST’s heyday. My best showing ever was 3rd place in a Marvel Super Heroes tournament (Psylocke for showing off, Captain America when I mean business). Beyond that, I used to tend to win once before losing twice because I didn’t know matchups and I just couldn’t stick to playing one character. After viewing some of the tournaments that I’ve seen, mainly the ones down here in Southern Cali, I think I’d…probably still be a 1 and 2 fighter. :slight_smile: I might be able to win 2 with the right draw.

If you really want to know more about me, just Google my name. I’m an alt.games.sf2 alumni, so I’ve been around for a while.

Sorry for the off topic, guys.

2292

Where in my explanation did you get this from? You can’t walk forward if a :hp: Low Tiger Shot is coming at you before you get in striking range. Before Guile can get into cr.:mk: range, he has to guess whether Sagat is going to throw a Tiger Shot, fake a Tiger Shot, do nothing, or possibly bait you with a Tiger Knee. (You know…Sagat could even throw a :lp: or :hp: High Tiger Shot to mix you up by either locking you into a crouch with the former or discouraging you from jumping at him with the latter, too.)

If Guile is able to get Sagat into his cr.:mk: range, that’s when he has a chance of baiting a Tiger Shot and punishing with a jump in…but Guile’s jump makes it so he has to guess correctly.

Ah but that’s the thing! Where in my explanation did it say that a good Sagat will let Guile get a Sonic Boom off? Sagat’s best chance is to zone Guile with Low Tiger Shots. If he does that, Guile has nothing left to follow in. So, with Guile’s deadliest weapon out of the equation, jumping and advancing on the ground is all he has left. He has to guess what Sagat’s going to do next and pray he doesn’t get Tiger Uppercutted back outside of his cr.:mk: range. Sagat, meanwhile, is pretty much controlling the pace of the match by mixing up what he does.

Try listening to Axel Kelly on this one. He knows his Guile.

2293

That he does… He had a excellent show at EVO this year. He was super fun to watch. :rock:

2294

I’m neg repping you. :arazz:

2295

I REJECT YOUR APOLOGY! FOR THIS ULTIMATE SIN YOU SHALL SUFFFFFFFERRRRR!!!

Thanks for the info. I was just curious because I read your post on frame data, and I thought to myself this dude knows everything. Looking forward to more of your contributions. Cheers.

2296

Well…blame NKI. He made the information available. Once I get a hold of a resource, if it’s good, I’ll use it to no end.

That would also explain my FAQs and the contributions I’ve made to other FAQs, too. :slight_smile: Listening to people more skilled than you is the path out of scrubdom, ya dig? :slight_smile:

2297

I’m not an expert, but the only way that I can think of for Sagat to stop Guile from opening with a Sonic Boom is by hitting a Tiger Knee. Sonic Boom comes out faster than Tiger Shot, and Tiger uppercut won’t reach. (Guile doesn’t extend forward to throw the Sonic boom.) Moreover, AFAICT Guile has a strong response for anything that Sagat does once the Sonic Boom comes out.

Opening with Tiger Knee isn’t necessarily a terrible idea, but it’s rather risky since Guile can hold down-back and then punish it.

2298

I know…I quoted myself…but I thought about something regarding this specific situation.

The reason why I rated this matchup as 6-4 is because, beyond a knockdown, this situation is Guile’s best chance at turning the match in his favor. If he gets to this range and sticks out a cr.:mk:, a few things can happen here.

  1. He gets Tiger Uppercutted. This would happen if Guile telegraphed it and the Sagat in question has been keeping him out successfully and is therefore sensing his frustration.

  2. He eats a Low Tiger Shot. Sagat may have slipped up on the exact range of the cr.:mk:, so he’s throwing the Tiger Shot out before Guile can get the cr.:mk: out.

  3. Sagat…blocks. If Guile finds himself here, this is his best chance to mix up between throwing a Sonic Boom and jumping up. Sagat will probably reversal Low Tiger Shot here to cancel the Sonic Boom if he knows that hiding behind one is Guile’s best chance to win.

  4. Sagat gets hit because he tried to throw a Tiger Shot or do something else too late. Same situation as 3, but with less pressure since Guile got some damage on Sagat.

Somebody else can play out situations 3 and 4 further with ensuing mind games.

2299

st1ffpeter is the best sagat I’ve seen on xbl if you think guile beats sagat play him and please post the results in the match vid thread, also I’m at a huge disadvantage having to use square gate for the moment but I’d be happy to play anyone and show at the very least sagat isn’t as bas as some here may believe.

2300

i saw this one and, think that i like it.

S: Akuma

A: Sagat, Dhalsim, Boxer, Claw, Dictator

B: Chun, Ryu

C: Deejay, Guile, Ken

D: Honda, Fei-Long, Zangief

F: T. Hawk, Blanka, Cammy