Just fight each other.
This is so true.
He’s got xbl from the looks of it so I won’t have a 360 stick til mvc2 te stick drops on 11/7:sad: but yeah I’ll be happy to record our matches so I can see what guile can do against sagat though I doubt I’ll see anything Axel Kelly hasn’t shown me.
Random question: what exactly makes chun’s new sbk worse then it was before? being able to use it to go over fb’s and crossup with it seems pretty cool.
They already are…in this thread. :arazz:
On Guile vs Sagat:
[media=youtube]xidXHA8c7Ic[/media] Choi/Kurahashi
[media=youtube]Wum5MqwWJek&feature=related[/media] Valle/Kurahashi
To my very limited knowledge, these are probably the two best examples of the Guile/Sagat match up. Well, that I could find in the few minutes I have to finish this post anyway. Now, I know this is only two matches, and yes I know these vids are of ST, but if Guile got better and Sagat got nerfed (compared to O.Sagat) why does Sagat win this match up? I just don’t see it, but hey I don’t play either character so I am probably not seeing a lot of subtleties. I’m just stirring the pot. To me, this is an interesting match up.
And for the record diceman078, -oh my god- or whoever that cat is has a piss poor Sagat at best. Play Valle or STPlaya, those guys have a mean Sagat.
Yeah ohmygod is a terrible player. So sad that he is the best sagat most people have played online. Lyghts out isn`t very good either. The only good sagat i ever played on hdr was kj outa the 17th.
As far as guile v.sagat, as an outside observer im inclined to agree that guile has the advantage. No good arguments were made in this thread though.
^^^ Dude I was just about to post that.
Anyway, I think in HDR the Guile/Sagat match is about even. Who cares if its 5.5-4.5, 6-4, or 5-5. The characters are so closely matched that the better player will win more in a longer set regardless of character selection. If the players are even in ability, then the matches will split ~about~ evenly. One set Guile may win more, in another Sagat might win more. Overall, neither character has a substantial advantage over the other in HDR.
Personally, I like the idea of a death match between the two of you in real life… That way we can move pass this pointless debate. Pull a little’ Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome’ action… 2 men enter,1 Man leaves… [media=youtube]zuRde4VxH4I[/media]
I’ll give odds and start taken bets at midnight… Oh yeah baby! GET HYPE! Bet it!
Guile did not, I repeat, did not have the advantage over Sagat in older SFII games. Unless you were playing Guile on a completely different level like one Legendary Player did.
Jeff played Thomas Guile back in either HF or Super, in a Jeff (Sagat) vs Thomas (Guile) match up. Thomas was just pinned down and beaten into submission, due to Tiger shots, and the strong zoning game. They were both deploying the super fast Sonic Boom and Tiger Shot tactics, however Tiger Shots>>>Sonic Booms in this fashion.
The problem with this match up is that, Guile is universally forced to come in, so even if Guile doesn’t take huge damage, but only moves slowly forward while jumping upwards, he’s still slowly getting chipped away by Sagat. Even when up close, one mistake means, Guile either suffer’s damage, or else is chipped blocked and pushed back away again. This again forces him to having to start back in obtaining position once more.
I can however, relate to some of the advantages that Guile does have, in HD, with the bigger hit boxes on Sagat’s arms. Sagat can be punished much more easily, if Guile is close enough and jumps upwards during a Tiger shot he can whack those long stretching arms. This was a tactic that has always worked very effectively when up close against Sagat (even in CE/HF where his hit boxes were not in huge retard mode) and deters them from wanting to throw out anymore Tiger Shots. Thus giving favor for Guile.
The Kurahashi vids are a nice example, however you can also watch videos of Jeff (Ce. Guile) vs Daigo (CE. Sagat), CE. Sagat is a vastly more powerful and superior version of O. Sagat, and Jeff displays alot of the tactics of how Guile can get in and beat Sagat. A few things are, Guile can out range Sagat with pokes (c.mk ftw, ST. Guile had a shitty c.mk but HD Guile does not), and Guile when close can also punish Tiger Shots.
I still believe it leans into Sagat’s favor, however only by a sliver when you are playing at their potential in HD. Imo, it’s the stupid hit boxes on Sagat’s arms during Tiger shots that can help benefit Guile players, not to mention, Guile has retained some of the aspects that made him a zoning monster in CE/HF.
Ground SBK:
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Unsafe on block
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Unsafe on hit
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You COULD use it to go over fireballs, but the startup is still so long that you can’t do it on reaction. You can’t use it very effectively to go THROUGH fireballs either, unless it’s a HP fireball.
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If the frame data thread is correct, the Lk version has less invulnerability on startup, and all versions have less invulnerability during landing.
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Distances are sort of wonky; you’d expect Lk to go the shortest distance and Hk the farthest. Well, Mk goes the shortest, Lk goes the medium distance, and Hk goes the longest. This is kind of weird because the Lk version has the fastest startup still.
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No longer an effective reversal vs. crossups. In ST, you could use SBK if someone was doing a meaty crossup, and they’d whiff and have to block (or duck under) the first hit of the SBK. If the opponent had a fireball, they’d probably hit you anyways, but you would make it farther away, preventing them from trying a second crossup after knocking you down.
Now, it no longer hits a grounded opponent at the beginning of the attack, most characters can just land, walk up and hit you for free. If your opponent is keen on what you’re trying to do, he’ll probably peg you with a move that knocks down so he can just set up another crossup.
Air SBK:
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No minimum height distance means you can do it on accident frequently when doing something like, for example, zoning with C.Mk and then going for an anti-air with instant neutral J.Hk. Where J.Hk would win, Air SBK equals a free attack for your opponent.
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Unsafe on block and hit vs. grounded opponents unless you do it so low to the ground that you’re hitting the opponent with the far end of your foot, i.e not going to happen against a projectile character.
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No longer an effective way to build meter against corner traps for two reasons:
- In ST, Chun’s Air SBK animation could end before she hit the ground, meaning that she could block instantly as she landed. Air SBK had a landing animation, but you would only see it if you did it too close to the ground, and that would mean you did it wrong anyways.
In STHD, the descent to the ground is part of the move, and as a result, you always get the landing animation.
- ST Air SBK was a parabolic arc similar to Hurricane Kicks. Now, it floats her, a lot like the Air Hurricane Kicks in Hyper Fighting. If you go over a fireball with this move, it’s not incredibly hard to hit her on the way down, or fake her out and leave her completely open to attack (if you tried this in ST, it wouldn’t matter because she’d probably make it to the ground even faster). It’s especially useless against Sagat now, because she has to do it outrageously high to avoid getting pegged by a High Tiger Shot that it’s worthless.
So we got all those new disadvantages, and here’s what we gained:
Ground SBK:
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In very specific situations, you can juggle with SBK after her Super for damage that rivals her old super. But, I have only pulled this off one time in a real match, even against mega scrubs.
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You can cross up with it. Of course, it’s unsafe on block AND hit, so have fun with that.
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If you anticipate a jump-in, you can anti-air with it, and even juggle with Upkicks or Super afterwards. As Shari pointed out, you COULD potentially juggle with a second SBK, but that’s very uncommon, as you have to be hit very high in your jump, and I think you might even need to be near a corner for it.
Air SBK:
- …You can do it after a headstomp and maybe avoid a DP. Yippeeeeee
Can juggle with another SBK aswell.
I’ve been hit by that.
It’s not pretty.
I love posts that are well detailed like that. If I could, I’d vote that the best post of the year. I completely agree with all of that, and you mentioned some things that I didn’t know, like Short SBK travelling further than Forward SBK. That maybe one explanation why the total frame counts for Short SBK are more than the Forward but less than the Roundhouse SBK.
This can be applied to the majority of matches in st and matchups are largely what determine tiers so in essence you’re arguing against the point of this thread which is fine but becomes ironic when you care enough to give input to what you obviously don’t care about.
You’re right about why sagat has a slight edge but these 2 other points are incorrect, the available frame data shows o.sagat has better fb’s and hdr guile has the same cr mk as he did in st.
The first vid is not a valid example because the guile player is clearly more skilled rather then having any inherent advantage and neither is the second because that’s ssft2 sagat.
Also for the record you’re more then likely the only one on this entire site who thinks it’s one of the most lopsided matchups then again when a well respected player like thelo says:
“intangiBLZ is one of the most random posters ever, I don’t think that anybody actually takes him seriously. All his posts are like that, long ramblings with no real point and a very tenuous connection to reality.”
I question why I bother responding to your posts.
Wouldnt say its totally in guiles favour, but the vids, especially the 1st one shows that guile has no need to jump at sagat and how he can counter attack tiger shots. Infact the guile player only does 1 risky jumpy close to the end when both players are almost out of health.
In the 2nd vid, you’ll notice that guile hardly jumps at sagat, instead he uses booms and sobat kick to gain ground and then when sagat is trapped in the corner…its game over for sagat.
In the 3rd vid its pretty much the same, more counter attacks and punishing tigers, basically guile can counter attack almost anything that sagat can do and thats in ST, so imagine in HDR with sagats increased recovery…6-4 / 5-5
guiles c.mk is the in hdr as it was in ST, I’m not saying its crap, its just not as good as it was in CE. Wasnt guile the top tier character in CE?
The difference is 3 extra frames of recovery, but the low tiger comes out 2 frames faster than it did according to T.Akiba’s data. 3 frames is surely significant, but the cycle time is still faster than Guile’s. (If they do get into a fireball duel, it’s now basically even at 51 vs 54 frames in cycle times.)
I think you’re oversimplifying the situation. HDR Sagat does have a super that travels horizontally, and a Tiger Knee that knocks down and can juggle for good damage. Either of those - or the combination - could offset the drawback from the slower fireball - especially in that matchup since Guile wasn’t pinned by them in the first place.
good point, but still, doing a tiger knee over a boom is risky for sagat, his tiger knee can land on a slow moving boom, or guile can throw him when the knee finishes. That being said sagat can go into a TU straight from a tiger knee and hit guile or throw him, so yeah…good point
thats too bad man, I enjoyed reading your posts, but you cant personal attacks on an online forum personally, remember these ppl dont know you and are probably calling you names cos they cant reason against ur logic.
Hey Zaspacer, any thoughts on the Fei vs. Bison matchup?
I just want to know if your thoughts have changed. :wgrin:
(1) I am not arguing against the point of this thread, there has been some great discussion. I think this thread is great. I am merely pointing out the complete futility of arguing the Guile vs. Sagat match up in this thread. Making a post or two about the subject is fine, but don’t carry it on and on.
The manner in which you post and reply to others when trying to prove your point is often inappropriate; your rude, antagonistic, arrogant, and frequently ill-informed.
(2) There is nothing ironic in supporting a statement one makes.
-fatty :china:
You’ve been a member at SRK for 8 years and haven’t figured it out?
90% of the people who think they are good actually end up being huge scrubs
The other 5% are kids who are decent, but are more concerned with their ego/reputation/crew. While you can say like a certain % of being a good player is due to luck, 100% of being a “good player” is sucking up to other people and shit:
“BOY I AM GOOD, BEATS PLAYER XYZ OH SHIT AND YOU’RE GOOD TOO”
“OH MAN I AM GOOD, AND YOU’RE GOOD TOO. LOSES AGAIN SEE HOW GOOD I AM (TRIED?”
The last 5% are either kids who are really great, but get shitted on because they don’t happen to be friends with MaJesTiC-BONEZGRINDERS “best at SF2” who works at the local ShopRite, and isn’t friends with the mall kids, didn’t suck up to the crew at NY, etc. etc.
And somewhere in that last 10% is the guy who reaches the top.