Thats where mind games come into play, any decent guile or deejay player knows that they will eventually lose a fireball war, but luring your opponant into a fireball war is an effective strategy as you can unexpectedly jump, like I said before most decent guile/deejay players will be good at knowing when to jump, it just comes with experience
Once again you bring up this “a good player knows when to jump” nonsense you still don’t seem to understand this is a very ignorant and invalid argument because when playing theory fighter you must assume both players of whatever matchup are equally skilled. However since you brought up the point I must inform you that because sagat relies more anticipation/reaction ability then any other character you using that lame excuse about player skill would only support my point even more.
Yes he is easier to beat in hdr but the fact is guile still has to work harder to win because he has to to jumpin at some point so it’s easier for sagat to dp him then it is for guile to successfully jumpin (especially since his air normals suck not that it matters against a well timed dp.) Just as you posit you can punish sagat’s fb’s I can fake fb, wait, tk to bait fk and punish with dp or walkup throw, fb mix up, and sagat builds meter fast so it’s nice to have an aa super when you know your opponent has to jumpin eventually.
The bottom line is sagat can keep out guile more effectively then guile can get in and even then he also has a better pressure game so there’s no denying he has an edge.
Generally agree with the new tier list for Cammy, would make it 3-7 v. Guile and 6-4 v. Fei Long.
Guile can punish O.sagat shoots with Boom and then Advancing Knee.
R.Sagat even easier to punish.
I dont need to jump in order to advance on sagat, I can just do a boom and follow it, with the boom in front of me I can advance safely, if sagat jumps over it I can zone him, if he tiger shot, I’ll punish with a sobat. If he does a tiger knee I’ll block and throw him or if I’ve got a charge I’ll flash kick or use crouching medium punch or even a back fist…all these options give me more space to advance.
My point is that ur saying guile needs to jump at sagat at some point and Im saying that he dosnt need to jump and if he does jump its unlikely sagat can AA him cleanly with a TU. In order for sagat to keep guile out he has to rely on tigers which just set him up for punishment.
Dont get me wrong, Im not saying its piss easy to beat sagat, Im just addressing the points you made and im trying to explain how guile can exploit them. Also why are you calling me ignorant, If I time it well and jump over a tiger shot theres nothing sagat can do, he has to take the hit, if im slightly off then he can TU but if I jump with medium kick theres a chance I can beat his TU or atleast trade with it.
Sagat has an increased recovery time with his tiger shots and that why its so punishable
honda doesnt beat vega.
til i see a bunch of vids of high level HDR(i stress that it has to be hdr and not ST) matchs vs the two, i wont be convinced.
Guile seems a bit low… but if you look at it his matchups aren’t really all that bad other than akuma being a 3-7
There is a difference between fact and opinion and much of what you say is incorrect. Guile doesn’t need to jump against sagat? lol in the time you can do 1 sb sagat can do 2 fb’s try posting this “guile doesn’t need to jump against sagat” in the guile thread and see the response you get.
Please stop using invalid points that aren’t applicable in any way for the millionth time as easily as you can say “If i time it well and jump over a tiger shot there’s nothing sagat can do” I can say I can time dp well and there’s nothing guile can do. So do you see how stupid it is for you to assume the guile player has any skill advantage? That inherently skews any objective view of the matchup if you’re going to talk about why another character beats another you must assume both players are equally skilled at the highest level.
Like I said before it’s harder for guile to jumpin safely against sagat then it is for sagat to dp him out of the air and due to his fb pressure you will more then likely have to jumpin at some point so sagat has a slight advantage this is not up for debate.
so i take it gaylander is the end all when it comes to hdr debate?
good to know
@ zoolander
OK, what is incorrect in what i’ve said and please explain how it cant be applied in guile V sagat match…you know what dont even bother you are just too opionated to see reason, so theres no point.
If we ever play a sagat - guile match then I’ll show you what I’ve been trying to explain to you…
peace
Zoolander is a little abrasive in his post but what he said about “knowing when to jump” being bullshit is true.
You can’t just say good guile knows when to jump. This is not a substantial argument.
Now, what I think you’re trying to say is that you can force Sagat into throwing fireballs in situations where it is not safe using various tactics. If that is the point you are trying to make then explaining these tactics would be a valid argument.
I admit that was more then abrasive I don’t mean to be but I do get sick of having to repeat myself 3 or more times, anyways like thelo said in his awesome post as obvious as it is playing based on reaction is much easier (assuming you have the reaction time required) then pure anticipation. Like with any character the more you make them guess the more likely it is that at least once you can punish them for guessing wrong and in sagat’s case he’s easier to punish for a wrong guess then most other characters. It’s worth noting sagat relies more heavily on the users anticipation ability then any other character.
thats what I’ve done in earlier posts, my point about knowing when to jump is that players who play mainly charge characters will factor in the fact that at some point they cant keep up with a shoto or sgat in a FS war, so they will employ various tactics to deal with that liability. Luring your oponant into throwing a series of fireballs and then Jumping is just one of them. I can jump at sagat and not press any attack button while airborne and if he does a TU it will whiff (from certain distances) you can do the same ‘trick’ guile against ken and ryu too
In case of sagat, its much easier to jump at him cos of the increased recovery and the fact that guiles medium kick jumping trades with or beats the TU, add to that the various ground options that guile use to exploit sagats slow recovery. when I play sagats i hardly jump cos there is hardly any reason to and when I do jump I get a trade of hits most of the time. But for the most part I try to slowly advance on sagat to get into a position where I can zome him, or using sobat kick to punish his tiger shots, guile dosnt need to jump to get into that position.
zooland said that for every sonic boom, sagat can do 2 tigers which isnt true cos guile can punish sagat as he is recovering from doing the 1st tiger cos he has forward moving attacks
You’re seriously out of touch with reality and I’ll bet money I’m not the only one here who thinks so. Look at how others like Bruce backup their opinions with established facts and logic now look at the random bullshit you spit out do you see why no one takes you seriously?
You’re incorrect on 3 points:
-You say guile can lure sagat into throwing a series of fb’s in order to jumpin successfully but that isn’t a valid point in supporting why you think guile has an advantage because like I said before sagat can just as easily if not more easily lure guile into jumping.
-It doesn’t matter if dp whiffs at any certain distance because using your logic a good sagat player won’t dp at the distance it whiffs and can choose to jrh or st rh both of which cleanly beats out all of guiles normals, or he can tk into dp so it doesn’t whiff.
-Also saying guiles j mk beats or trades with dp is incorrect because you’re assuming the sagat player doesn’t time his dp perfectly what you should do is assume he does because in that case guile is at a clear disadvantage that’s not up for debate.
It’s a mistake to judge any matchup based off solely your own experience yet that’s exactly what you’re doing you say you hardly have to jump yet you don’t understand the simple fact that a good sagat will force guile to jump and cleanly dp him every time.
It’s fact guile is at a disadvantage because of this what is arguable is the degree of which he is at but even that is a moot point because guile still has plenty of tools to force sagat into disadvantageous guessing games so it’s really not much of an advantage.
Sagat wins 5.5-4.5 at worst and 6-4 at best…see it’s silly to really argue further there’s not much difference it’s only a slight advantage so the match can go either way. What it really comes down to is the ability of the sagat user to force a jumpin versus the guile user’s ability to punish a whiffed high fb.
Yes because cvs2 is so much like hdr.
guile has always been good against sagat except in ssf2/st and sf4
You’re being too one sided and not seeing both sides of the argument. I’ve explained to you why guile has no need to jump at sagat, I’ve also explained how guile can counter attack sagat after he does a tiger shot. Sagat cant really counter attack guile after he does a boom, he either has to jump over it or block or nullify it with a tiger or do a risky tiger knee, in anycase it puts guile it an advantageous position.
Even if we assume both players are of the same ability, by character design in HDR guile has the advantage. 5-5 / 6-4 at best
Personally, i think sagat and honda are ranked too high on that tier list.
Maybe that’s because there just aren’t that many good sagat players on-line - oh my god - being the only one that comes to mind. I don’t see how they can give guile vs dhalsim 4/10 and guile v sagat 4/10 when any good guile player knows fighting a dhalsim expert is probably the toughest match up.
Dude, don’t bother. intangiBLZ did this same crap to you and me back in this thread around the 1st of January. Don’t bother arguing with logic. He seriously just brought up CvS2 and Daigo playing Guile (nothing about if he actually fought against Sagats) as evidence to his point. You’ll get further with him using all caps and typing “Sagat wins, blah blah blah blah.”
I’ve already explained in detail why guile DOES have to jump all you’ve explained is how guile can punish sagat at close range so if anything you’re the one being one sided when I’ve addressed explicitly why you’re incorrect yet you failed to do the same. Try posting that “guile beats sagat because of character design” bs in the guile thread and see the response you get.
No matter what you say the fact is guile has to work harder to win the matchup.