It’s SF4’s fault!!!
:arazz:
Well, we don’t have to argue about it, but a patient honda rapes fei.
in terms of lopsidedness(its a real word):
honda gets raped by fireball characters way worse than honda beats cammy/fei.
the whole honda rapes cammy/fei argument pretty much holds no water due to the fact that no one is on sirlin’s level with them and he seemed to have done well with them a couple months ago vs honda(fei long anyway).
i can see honda raping gief and hawk like 8-2/7-3, but i really dont think honda v cam/fei is worse than 7-3(its prolly close to 6-4)
until a really good cammy or fei comes along i dont think these matchup numbers will be right.
(no offense if you play a “good” cammy or fei)
^ The fact that only Sirlin can somehow manage should be a testament to Cam-Hon matchup difficulty. You can’t judge matches based solely on elite play because most players will never reach that level. Besides, there are also videos of Sirlin getting beaten by Thelo - and I’m willing to bet Sirlin will lose more than he’ll win. Its possible to squeeze a win but you have to have 100% flawless play.
I can imagine the Fei matchup is hell too. I’m an average Honda but I’ve massacred Fei’s with just st. jab and the headbutt.
elite play is what tiers are/should be based off. . .
The funniest one is his claim that he brought cammy to top 8 in evo. He used her for what one match? Good shit on the fei shit but dont be blowing your own horn THAT much
It was afro’s boxer and valle was raped, though several people told me that because they live 5 minutes away from each other neither was playing each other seriously lol.
Amazing? lol ok now you’re either trolling or using hyperbole my previous post fake fb should have answered you but if you still think fake fb is that good then prove it. All the evidence thus far shows it’s nothing more or less then a very helpful option only a small % of ryu’s can effectively incorporate into their game even then it’s used sparingly, nor does it improve ryu’s ranking like I said before it solidifies it considering the anti fb buffs some others now have.
While you are right lets not bullshit ourselves honda having a vulnerable hitbox in front of hhs sounds like more of a nerf on paper (or in this case online lol) then it actually is. I could make a case that hhs easier motion more or less negates the nerf it got, I don’t think I’m the only one on srk who thinks it’s roughly the same as it was in vst.
A big part of why chun was so good in vst is because her super did 80% now even with upkicks it barely does 50 that’s a pretty big nerf (a needed one though) and while no more neckbreaker crossup isn’t much of a nerf her new sbk arc certainly is. Now consider what she lost compared to what she gained (easier legs) and then look at what other characters net gain is and you can understand why damdai one of the best chuns out there switched to dictator.
You don’t seem to understand how significant his buffs are: overhead gives him a powerful mixup after walk in sb even if you think it’s telegraphed the 50/50 guessing game is still there good guiles will show you. Getting hit by cr mk is actually that bad because that’s damage you just took for guessing wrong, also it gives guile the chance for a followup with knee, another sb, or whatever every st player knows a single mistake can and often does mean a lost round. Guile players will explain to you better then I can why rh flash is a big deal but basically it gives guiles breathing room not worrying as much about jumpins they wouldn’t be able to punish as harshly without it, rh flash alone turns the once horrible matchup with sim into a more even one. Also consider guile’s super is not only braindead easy to do but it connects fully no matter where or when it hits you so basically once guile gets meter you can’t jump that’s a pretty damn good buff.
So with these tools improving his bad matchups n increasing his already good ones (like I said Ill leave it to the good guiles to explain his matchups to you if need be) WTF did DJ get? Oh yeah he got mgu cancelling fb’s…yeah um that really skyrockets him to toptier but wait that’s not it he also has… um…easier mgu…that doesn’t do 50% anymore:rofl: DJ and guile were considered midtier in vst guile got buffs DJ didn’t it’s that simple so what if he has better jumpins or combos? that doesn’t neccesarily make him have better matchups. Guile doesn’t have too much use for jumpins or combos at least not as much as most of the cast and no DJ doesn’t have a better super it’s kinda safe (last hit can be dp’ed) but that’s it guile’s super makes it almsot TOO risky to jumpin at all.
What exactly do you mean by “ken can just turn it around FAST” how does this statement not apply to everyone? And when you say “does it often enough” you’re assuming the ken player is skilled enough to do so that’s kind of a leap when considering how player skill factors into a character’s ranking. You say “ken is better then guile no doubt in my mind and dictator is better then ken” yet you show no evidence nor provide any logical explanation as to WHY you believe this may I make a suggestion and say never make a statement you aren’t willing to defend.
Any claw player will tell you even though it was fucking retardedly powerful n braindead easy being able to continually setup 50/50’s on wakeup that’s not what makes claw toptier. What does make him one of the best is his walking speed, throw range, pokes, and AA so claw can rape almost everyone on the ground or in the air. Consider whle walldive can’t knockdown anymore it is still one of if not the very best special in the game it can: Be setup on either side, land n hit on either side, can now be faked, still just as fast, and takes a good chunk not to mention it’s the only special that can help you avoid a fb on your way to attacking the opponent.
Instead of saying you’re wrong I’m simply curious to know why exactly you think sagat sucks.
You just singlehandedly destroyed all the data and educated opinions anyone has ever had about the game you win!!!
Somewhere NKI is crying knowing all his efforts were destroyed in a single sentence.
zoolander suck mine and everyone elses dick you fucking homo fgt.
and lol
If you can’t keep it civil, then GTFO.
Exactly. Does Dictator have an advantage vs Boxer? Me thinks so.
While I agree with you about Guile’s buffs (LOVE that Overhead! That and new Devil’s Reverse are the best buffs in the game, forget about Fake Hadoken), Dee Jay was already higher tier than Guile in Classic ST IMO. With Guile’s new buffs, and don’t forget Dee Jay’s other buff (low invincibility on all Dread Kicks makes it dangerous to sweep him from mid range, and he’s guaranteed to connect for 2 hits now compared to Classic ST), Guile and Dee Jay are pretty neck and neck, with a slightly higher ranking to Dee Jay for his excellent footsies and dangerous crossups IMO.
I stopped reading ZOOLANDERS post as soon as he said damdai switched from Chun-Li to Dictator.
It’s debatable but IMO guile>DJ and jiggly you know who I meant lol.
This isn’t really correct. I feel like sirlin rode through the evo teams and through the evo, using fei, because of his own skill and people not fully understanding the new fei. CW is not that scary. The reason honda (which correct me if I’m mistaken, you play honda) rapes fei, because he can pretty much sit in down back all day.
If fei rekkas, jumps, or walks into ochio range, honda releases a punch button or torpedos. Fei has no way of making honda need to do anything. Torpedo is too good in that one matchup. If honda’s torpedo was less safe, but still safe enough against fireballers then the nonfireballers may be able to do something about him.
The honda players will argue theres more to that matchup and the hawk matchup then holding down back. In reality this is their own fault for wanting to be aggressive with honda against for example (because i know him better than 99% of the people on this board, and the other 1% are just as knowledgable with me) hawk. If honda holds down back really what can hawk do? Walk up typhoon? Walk up dp? walk up cr.jab? Nothing safe.
The truth is, the honda players dont like to be that bored (and i really really really cant blame them at all) by holding down back all match and tend to be more aggressive.
Well that’s on them i guess, but I beat misteregotrip’s honda using aquasnake’s strategy. I won a few more in the room and then ego comes up again. He just sat there. Just sat there in down back, and torpedo my rekkas and CW on reaction. I just tried to approach and get close and he would walk sweep my st.hp/st.jabs.
Maybe I should just use ryu.
Bolded the incorrect part. Rekka is way too fast to be reactable, and especially not with a Honda headbutt. If you face the downback Honda you just described, do rekkas. Honda will be forced to predict one with a buttslam or something to beat you.
Forward walk fierce + [rekka, CW, throw, another fierce] is also an unreactable mixup. Honda will try to farsweep your forward walk fierce, but run into your rekka or CW instead (starts faster than farsweep). In mid-close range, Fei fierce is an option-select against buttslam (close Fierce whacks the rising buttslam out of the air), headbutt, and HHS. Stay ready to flamekick the inevitable jump-in once Honda realizes he’s trapped, of course.
I just said it, but do more rekkas, really. Safe on block, chips Honda, unreactable, beats headbutts and the startup of farsweep and HHS, forces him to do something. It’s an all-purpose miracle, really. If Honda wants to HHS every time to even out the chip damage, just do flamekick at the end instead of blocking (remember, any time you can block, you can flamekick).
I get somewhat tired of explaining that matchup over and over again, but there you go. Hopefully after the twentieth time, we can bust this recurring myth of “there is nothing Fei can do against Honda”.
That’s exactly why Thelo gives me such a hard time. He IS willing to just sit there the entire match in down+back. If you’re opponent does this when you’re Hawk, all you can do is bait and hope.
your previous post said nothing of substance about the fake fireball. Just your opinion.
Blanka can no longer punish bad fireballs on reaction. You either land on a real one or get AA’d. If you choose to delay your reaction to the sound (impossible in tournaments with lots of noise) or the actual fireball, you either end up blocking a fireball and get pushed back out, getting tagged with a fast one as you jump or simply getting AA’d by a real fireball, shoryu or something else cause your delay in reaction gave him time to recover.
Blanka ball is safer now but Ryu just got a lot harder to approach.
I could be a scrub, but Blanka has a lot of trouble with the fake imo.
Yes, I would have to say that is very debatable =]
I believe DJ>Guile. A few reasons, I don’t have much time at the moment but I will get back to this in more detail.
While Guile does have some great normals, I do not believe they are better than Deejays. Deejays cr strong is better than Guiles cr forward IMHO. Well, maybe not “better”, but it really compliments his other normals and over all style really well, as does Guiles cr forward. At the very least, its as useful as Guiles cr forward. It beats out damn near anything and has decent range, the hitbox on that thing is huge and it does pretty decent damage. Deejays cr forward also has great priority and range, but sets up the brutal option select madness that is the hallmark of Deejays offense due to it knocking down on hit. This move alone helps him win tough match ups such as Boxer and Claw. Not saying he “wins” these match ups, just saying they help tremendously. Jumping jab and short are really useful in a lot of situations, and jumping RH has great range. Deejays cr roundhouse is useful in too many situations to go into. Thank you Capcom for the slide. His meaty standing forward is not to be under estimated either.
His AA normals are better than Guiles IMHO, such as standing fierce, strong, and roundhouse, so he isn’t totally helpless when he loses his charge. Close standing roundhouse has some nifty uses as well. Cr fierce is good AA in certain situations, and is a great all purpose poke. That elbow is nasty.
Upkicks aren’t the greatest AA in the world, but they get the job done. They juggle, and set up his cross up and you can tack on the super too. Maxouts are great, not as good as booms, but great none the less. They make a lot of characters miserable. I will admit that Flash Kick is probably better, and I know sonic booms are better than what the Jamaican has, though max outs are very useful. Guile doesn’t have Dread Kicks either, which are actually pretty damn useful in Remix.
One cross up could mean the end of a round, and even against good players the opportunity to cross an opponent up comes around more often than not. Some characters it isn’t very wise to cross up however, but against most of the cast it is a great asset. He puts pressure on people better than Guile can, and it’s pressure that usually leads someone to make a mistake/get sloppy.
Deejay has better jabs and shorts. Standing short or cr short are great poking/ticking tool, as is cr jab. Cr jab can go into short upkick or MGU, which knocks down and allows cross up foolishness. Cr short can do the same and must be blocked low.
As far as match ups go, Deejay has some good ones but again so does Guile. That is why I said I need some more time to respond to this, I am going to go over both characters match ups (they are pretty much the only 2 characters I played as, I actually don’t have this game anymore). At first glance however, I do believe Deejay does better against the entire cast the Guile does.
To me, Deejay can do pretty much everything Guile can do, only a little better or sometimes a little worse. At the end of the day though, Deejay can kill you with 1 cross up, and has the tools to set it up. That alone to me makes him more dangerous and therefore better than Guile (in most situations against most of the cast). He is also versatile, he can turtle, which is really useful in situations where you just want to milk the clock and sit on a life lead, or he can pressure with maxouts, slides, crossups, jump ins, etc.
Maybe I have not played enough good Guiles. The only halfway decent Guile I played was To13Go13 or something like that. Still, I was not all that scared of him either.
I am probably a little biased as well, because Deejay fits my style so well I just tend to do better with him 
Sirlin making an argument that Cammy is a tournament viable character based on playing her for a two matches in the top 8 is absurd. He made his way to the final 8 using only characters other than Cammy. But once he made his way into the top 8 he chose Cammy, but only as a counter-pick, and nothing more. How that automatically makes her tournament viable escapes me.
If Sirlin had taken Cammy from pools and made top 8 using nothing but her in HDR then he could make an argument that Cammy is as tournament viable as he thinks she is. But the fact is that her appearance is top 8 was only because of counter-picking Boxer and he won one match then lost the second and then choose Dictator instead of trying to win the third fight with Cammy.
When Kuni took Zangief at EVO2K? and was destroying O.Sagats right and left it was a more reasonable demonstration of the tournament viability of that character. If he had chosen other characters then played one top 8 match as Zangief it would have been far less impressive.
Tiers and balance changes should absolutely be based off of the highest levels of play. What are NKI’s efforts that you are referring to? To balance games around mid and low level play? NKI is certainly an elite player of ST and I would think he’d discuss balance changes with regards to the highest levels.
So Chun’s super used to do 80??? I didn’t know that. Super/upkicks only does 50? I need to test those numbers, if it’s true then yeah she may not be as high. I don’t recall 80% on super. I RARELY saw any of the high level peeps use SBK… ever. If they did, it didn’t make much of a difference and might have been a ‘mistake’. I think the move just sux in general (both new and old). I wish Sirlin could have made kneckbreaker work as an ambigious cross-up, based on char and distance (work out all the math), but to make it fair/work right it would have taken too much programming time. The way it was was just too random? If it could have been ‘stream-lined’ it would have been a nice addition to her moveset and done something no other move does. As it is now it’s cool, but not the most effective… she could be doing something else that works more in her favor.
Maybe Sagat isn’t that bad, as one guy I played today had a pretty good hold on him and beat me a few times, but I won’t change my mind that this newest incarnation isn’t low mid until someone comes along and starts pwing the better HDR players. His nerfs make him the worst FB char imo and he, by his very nature (moveset), becomes predictable and a jump in against him most often hurts (his defense/offense vs a jump in is the worst out of the FBers). He then has trouble getting people off him. His jumping S/RH over and over into s SK, into various mindgames, is the best technique i’ve seen him played with, but that was really only working against me because I was playing Sim and Dict.
Does anyone else think Ken is better than Sagat, Guile and DJ? I think he is and just barely ahead of DJ.