The inevitable tier thread

[Coth_X]

i thought it was similar to ryu’s recovery(sagat’s tigers)?

something sirlin said im pretty sure

and doesnt ken’s hado recover faster than ryu’s?

i think sagat shouldve at least had faster recovering shots than thiers(even if it was by a frame or 2 or 3 or 4)

Ken has two additional startup frames and one less recovery frame

ryu 12 40/41/42 52,53,54
ken 14 39/40/41 53,54,55

There’s one frame difference between ken and ryu’s hados, and combined with the speed of ken’s hados. It makes ken’s life drastically hard in zoning fights. Pretty much every fireballer will eventually beat ken (he wants to be inside anyways) but its hard for him to keep up at full screen with them. Even guile can throw like 6 or 7 booms before he has to jump or block ken’s next hado.

[TrueSephiroth]

Since N.Sagat’s Shots can be kara cancelled, theoretically he has the same recovery as O.Sagat. I don’t know but that doesn’t sound right. Even when it’s kara cancelled, O.Sagat feels like he has WAY better recovery. Maybe it doesn’t have anything to do with recovery, but rather travelling speed of the Shots? I’ve always thought that O.Sagat’s Shots cross the screen much faster than N.Sagat. Those things fly like bullets. That could just be me though.

Sirlin noted that he only gave HD Sagat 4 more frames of recovery upon his Tiger shot. Other then that, this was the only thing added, other then possibly the larger hit box upon this. With 4 more frames, that’s 11-37 (O. Sagat Tiger shot frames) to 11-41 frames. If you actually think about this, it isn’t terrible at all, considering HF. Sagat had the exact same frames for his Tiger Shots. During the hayday of HF I can assure anyone here that 11-41 Tiger Shots were definitely not shitty on any level against a solid to great Sagat player.

I feel that the Tiger Shots recovery is not really the “gimp” here in HD, but more of his hitboxes on his arms…they feel bigger and more punishable.

[blitzfu]

Sirlin noted that he only gave HD Sagat 4 more frames of recovery upon his Tiger shot. Other then that, this was the only thing added, other then possibly the larger hit box upon this. With 4 more frames, that’s 11-37 (O. Sagat Tiger shot frames) to 11-41 frames. If you actually think about this, it isn’t terrible at all, considering HF. Sagat had the exact same frames for his Tiger Shots. During the hayday of HF I can assure anyone here that 11-41 Tiger Shots were definitely not shitty on any level against a solid to great Sagat player.

I feel that the Tiger Shots recovery is not really the “gimp” here in HD, but more of his hitboxes on his arms…they feel bigger and more punishable.

Sirlin’s Balance Article on Sagat:

“Sagat now has fireball recovery that?s better than New Sagat and worse than Old Sagat. In ST, the difference in recovery times was about 12 frames between Old and New (huge), and Remixed Sagat?s recovery is about 4 frames worse than the terror that was Old Sagat. It?s still very good, but not as abuseable. It?s similar to Ryu?s fireball recovery.”

NKI’s site shows:

HF Sagat recovery 37/37/37
AE Sagat recovery 45/45/45
SSFII Sagat recovery 37/37/37
ST Sagat recovery 37/39/41

The highest number is 45 and the lowest is 37. The difference between the two is 8 frames. I’m just wondering where Sirlin got 12 frames difference from. If in fact the difference is 8 frames and not 12, then Remix Sagat should have been given 3 frames more recovery than O.Sagat and not 4, to still keep his Shots effective but not as nasty as SSFII Sagat, and not as slow as ST Sagat IMO.

[Coth_X]

Sirlin’s Balance Article on Sagat:

“Sagat now has fireball recovery thats better than New Sagat and worse than Old Sagat. In ST, the difference in recovery times was about 12 frames between Old and New (huge), and Remixed Sagats recovery is about 4 frames worse than the terror that was Old Sagat. Its still very good, but not as abuseable. Its similar to Ryus fireball recovery.”

NKI’s site shows:

HF Sagat recovery 37/37/37
AE Sagat recovery 45/45/45
SSFII Sagat recovery 37/37/37
ST Sagat recovery 37/39/41

The highest number is 45 and the lowest is 37. The difference between the two is 8 frames. I’m just wondering where Sirlin got 12 frames difference from. If in fact the difference is 8 frames and not 12, then Remix Sagat should have been given 3 frames more recovery than O.Sagat and not 4, to still keep his Shots effective but not as nasty as SSFII Sagat, and not as slow as ST Sagat IMO.

Are the numbers from NKI’s site from the arcade version? Remember that ganelon said that the arcade version had different timings on different stages.

Sirlin did say some other disputed things though. Like dictator’s “tier” placement, and

But what about Ryu, the star character? His main tool is his fireball and I was worried about him slipping even lower in the overall rankings if other characters had more answers to fireball traps. The fake fireball is a brilliant answer because it lets him keep his fireball traps, even though other characters can get around them more easily now.

Even though Ryu received only one change in SF HD Remix, its quite a change and its power ripples through a lot of matches.

[blitzfu]

Are the numbers from NKI’s site from the arcade version? Remember that ganelon said that the arcade version had different timings on different stages.

True, good point. It just seems to me that Remix Sagat’s Shots are closer to ST Sagat’s Shots than SSFII Sagat, in terms of recovery and fireball travelling speed IMO, that’s all I’m saying.

Sirlin did say some other disputed things though. Like dictator’s “tier” placement, and

How is what Sirlin said about Ryu’s Fake Hadoken wrong?

[TrueSephiroth]

The highest number is 45 and the lowest is 37. The difference between the two is 8 frames. I’m just wondering where Sirlin got 12 frames difference from. If in fact the difference is 8 frames and not 12, then Remix Sagat should have been given 3 frames more recovery than O.Sagat and not 4, to still keep his Shots effective but not as nasty as SSFII Sagat, and not as slow as ST Sagat IMO.

This is the site I’m looking at here…

http://nki.combovideos.com/flame.html

I believe the 12-frames Sirlin was speaking of, maybe the start up which is what may be confusing people. Because you have the 11-37, 11 for startup and 37 for recovery. There’s absolutely no way 12-frames is for the recovery otherwise O. Sagat’s Tiger Shots would have been beyond the term broken.

However O. Sagat’s are stated to be 11-37 (Just like CE. Sagat), if you add the additional 4-frames as Sirlin stated to recovery, then it would become 11-41, which is like HF. Sagat’s. It would still be worse then O. Sagat’s, but still better then N. Sagat. Not only that but this also coincides to making it match more closely to Ryu’s projectile start up and recoveries in ST of 12-40.

[Fulaani]

Are the O. characters in VST exact clones of SSF2? I remember being told no.

[Coth_X]

True, good point. It just seems to me that Remix Sagat’s Shots are closer to ST Sagat’s Shots than SSFII Sagat, in terms of recovery and fireball travelling speed IMO, that’s all I’m saying.

How is what Sirlin said about Ryu’s Fake Hadoken wrong?

He didn’t see it as powerful as it really is.

Ryu got a great buff but no nerf to balance it, honda got buffs but really small nerfs, and fei for instance got buffs balanced by stupid nerfs.

[Fulaani]

I was gonna start the fake fireball thing again but whatever I’ve said my piece. Biggest buff in the entire game for a character that didn’t even need it!

[jamiejame911]

Playing Ryu tonight has shown me more and more the power of the fakefb. Using it to buffer(?) the super is quite nice. I’d like to see more Ryu vs Sim and Vega at the tops to really figure out if this one buff has put him above these other two chars. He is prolly equal to them honestly.

and yes Sagat still sux ;-p

[shortpitched713]

He still loses to Sim and Vega though. As far as Vega was concerned he was never really scared of Ryu’s fireball in the first place so a fake one is hardly gonna do any good in that matchup.

[Doodah]

i thought ryu lost the match in ST because of wall dive?

now that he can bait wall dive with fake fireball this match is way closer to even than in ST(not that it was even or close to it in ST).

Vega can fake wall dive too, but ryu will usually have time to throw a fireball(or punish in another way) if he sees it.

[x64]

Are the O. characters in VST exact clones of SSF2? I remember being told no.

No. They have properties that are similar to their SSF2 characters and have bits of past incarnations of the characters added in.

[Ganelon]

Uh, what bits from past incarnations?

[Doodah]

i know old honda had an awesome st.HP.

now he’s got a mostly useless one and is only good as cl.HP(which is the O. Honda HP), which is usually lame cause if you do it too early you get the crappy standing version and if you do it too late you get fucked.

[x64]

Uh, what bits from past incarnations?

I was under the impression that a few characters had older hitboxes and move properties from pre-SSF2 games.

[ShadedWolf]

I don’t know how people consider Ryu to be top tier in this game, even with his “fake” fireball buff. I can see him as high tier but not as top.

You really have to outplay the person as Ryu in order to win. He doesn’t have a “suck out” pattern or strategy that can really turn around a match either.

He has bad matchups with all the other characters in the top tier, and even some other ones with characters like zangief. And ryu vs honda isn’t even close to free, I think it’s more like 5-5 at best and it’s laughable how you could hit honda like 10 times with fireball but he can get you once and you’re done.

[alex6x6x6]

and ryu vs honda isn’t even close to free, i think it’s more like 5-5 at best and it’s laughable how you could hit honda like 10 times with fireball but he can get you once and you’re done.

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[ShadedWolf]

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Have you actually played someone good?

I mean not idiots who get killed by simple fireballs who don’t know about jump up and fierce punch?

HDR honda can build so much meter through jab headbutting fireballs and then rape you with super.

If you guess wrong on fireball one time then you’re done.

[Ganelon]

I was under the impression that a few characters had older hitboxes and move properties from pre-SSF2 games.

Nah, to my knowledge, nobody has yet to locate any differences in hitboxes and frames from the SSF2 iterations (although that’s not to say they don’t exist). The only known differences so far between SSF2 and ST old are the different move canceling properties and o.claw’s wall dive animation.