The Heihachi Mishima Thread

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
421

Heihachi can indeed set up a ground bounce pretty well, or you can go into Pandora off his ex Demon Breath for a more damaging starter. If you are starting out with 2 bars anyways, though, it should be very possible to combo into ~600 dmg with Heihachi’s super alone with power gem setups. This prevents you from using one of Yoshi’s gem slots on pandora gems, or a super gem he will use infrequently.

Starting with 3 bars, though, I’m willing to bet you can get 700+ damage off Heihachi’s wall bounce into Pandora using pandora gems. I’m not sure what the juggle potential is on yoshi’s moves, but perhaps Gehosen into super, somehow? Ex demon’s breath does 120 damage, so starting from c.mk xx qcf + PP will get you about 715 damage (with pandora and super gems on Yoshi) if Gehosen, s.mk xx super works as a followup.

422

Hmm…that’s true. And you could do EX Demon Breath, Jichinsai to cause a ground bounce as well, since I think some characters super arts work better off of a ground bounce (like Yoshimitsu’s and Cammy’s).

Gonna have to do more testing!

423

Well, found an interesting use for Raijin Stance. You can use it as an auto-correct vs rolls if you knock the opponent down. This works well since it should hit meaty and end up relatively safe, or even lead into a combo even if it isn’t a counter hit. I find it works great after your standard Dragon Uppercut xx Dragon Uppercut follow-up, jump over HK. If the opponent doesn’t quickstand, you buffer the motion for Raijin Stance just before they would roll, but delay your button input. If done correctly, your move will go towards the opponent whether or not they roll.

Here’s a video demonstrating it:

[media=youtube]H8J9D1UHXmk[/media]

Best part is this doesn’t just apply to Heihachi’s Raijin Stance. There are several other moves that this appears to work with, and not just with Heihachi. :smiley:

424

Great stuff, man! This is in line with my own findings from the lab session I had after our discussion about Hei’s oki a few days ago.

A few notes:
[LIST]
[]It seems like it’s not possible to get your autocorrected meaty Raijin quite as meaty as a perfectly timed meaty Raijin for a standard wake up. However, you can get at least +6-7, which should be all you need.
[]A properly timed autocorrected meaty MP Raijin stance should let you combo with MP Raijin (meaty), s.LK xx lp Rising Upper, s.MP xx MP Rising Upper, cl.HP xx MK Dragon Upper, followup. I recorded the training dummy doing it, and he successfully landed the combo on regular stand and after a roll. This should be a good meterless substitute to the combo you demonstrated, with similar damage.
[/LIST]

425

Yeah, I figured that would work. I just went with the EX Rising Upper in the video because I knew it would hit; sometimes the lp rising upper seems to miss at max range from the st.lk.

426

Anyone got any tips for controlling the space above heihachi’s head? I’m having trouble with stuff like jab jab cross up or neutral jumps.

427

If the opponent is just doing jab, jab, cross-up, jab, jab, repeat, then when they land the cross-up, buffer a counter. It should always come out once the opponent lands. Obviously don’t overuse this because I’m sure you know how hard it hurts to have it get baited. :smiley:

For neutral jumps I think Chrome Dome should work.

428

If you don’t crouch tech, punishing neutral jumps with ** b.MP xx HK Hell Axle -tag into 500 dmg-** is very possible.

Chrome dome is a good option as well, especially against neutral jumps. You can get good damage off CD by hitting a c.LP as they are falling, leading to c.LP, c.MK xx whatever. The timing for this, however, is fairly tight, and requires CD to hit at a specific height.

429

The problem was I was doing chrome dome but I had to delay it a little bit. If I did it too quick the opponent would land behind me and I would whiff.

Also might be a late but if you option select ex rising upper, lk or mk hell axel from a jump in, you can catch people would backdash away. Ex rising for regular backdashes. Use mk hell axel for people who faster backdashes like Xiaoyu, Chun, or Julia, and can recover in time to avoid ex rising upper. Use lk axel for Kazyua since he has a godlike backdash and can avoid ex rising upper and mk hell axel.

430

They didn’t touch Hammer Punch!!! Thanks, Capcom!

Air crush on MK, cancelable cl.HK, more damage on Jichinsai, 3 levels of Chrome Dome with lv 2 being mid, all interesting stuff.

The downside - we’ll have to work (a touch) harder to maintain offense since LP Demon Breath is now -3 on block. Only other thing that’ll require some getting used to is the removal of the forward movement on EX Rising Upper, which I use to punish close/mid-range fireballs on reaction.

No complaints here. Thoughts?

431

I’m glad that he got more buffs then nerfs. Just wondering how the Chromo Dome will work! Does that mean for the Lv.3 We will have to hold down LP+MP and don’t let it go?

432

Pretty sure the one they changed was Dragon Upper, making that more of an EX DP than anything. EX Rising Upper is more of a fireball punisher and combo extender off of extended ground strings, I don’t see why they’d radically change that.

433

I was confused myself - thanks for the correction. Between grading all these papers and reading these patch notes my eyes might be a bit fatigued.

I can only imagine that’ll be the case.

434

Now I just need Dr. Wily costume alt and I’m good :slight_smile: :tup:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/24/ezazugu3.jpg

435

I’m so glad they left his frame advantages alone for the most part. Lets have a look at all the listed changes, shall we?

MK – Startup 6F->5F - First hit causes knockdown on midair hit - Hurtbox on parts of leg and head are invincible against air attacks - Damage 30+30(60)->50+20(70)

Air crush on MK is a decent change, although I don’t feel like it was really needed since b.MP is such a good AA. This should removing trading with certain air attacks from the equation though, which is great. For max damage with 1 bar, though, looks like I will probably be using CD, c.MK xx HK Hell axle. Otherwise, mk xx lp/mp rising upper should be a little easier execution-wise than b.mp xx rising upper. I’m curious if the hitbox on mk will provide a suitable AA vs deep jump ins.

Close HK – Can be canceled - Damage 90->80

With cl.HP staying at 90 damage, it looks to be the superior choice most of the time. This will give us a bit more flexibility if we end up using boost chains for some reason, though, because cl.HK seems to come out a lot. I’d like to point out that Hei’s safe s.lk > s.mk boost chain remained unchanged.

cr. MP – 7F added to boost combos (-5F on hit/-9F on block)

This should never come up.

Jichinsai – Damage 50->90

A damage buff to an already great move? Sure, why not?

Chrome Dome(LV.1) – Damage 50->80
Chrome Dome(LV.1) – Damage 50->130 - Move attack property changed from high to mid
Chrome Dome(LV.3) – Damage 50->180 - Move attack property changed from high to unblockable - Will whiff on midair opponents

Seems to be implying that lvl 2 is a mid. If level 1 is uncharged and level 2 is with any bit of charge, that means Hei now has a 13f (1f of charging) overhead that causes slip on crouching CH. Will EX CADC into Chrome Dome from f.lp>lp be a new way to use meter? The unblockable seems like it will be extremely hard to use, because against an opponent who knows how it works, you will have to hit them in their pre-jump frames to avoid whiffing painfully and eating a jump in combo. Pretty tight timing if you have to charge for 70f.

L. Demon Breath – Removed 3F of block stun(-3F on block)

There’s something weird here. Either they removed 3f of blockstun, which would put it at -1 on block, or they removed 5f of blockstun, which would put it at -3 on block. Either way, it looks like one of my favorite frame traps, s.lk xx lp RU after a blocked lp Demon’s Breath, will be gone. I feel like this change drastically reduces how much use Demon’s breath is going to see. We already only have use for the lp version and the EX version.

M. Demon Breath – Removed 11F of block stun(0 on block)

Another set of contradictory changes. If mp DB is actually 0 on block, it will be a viable way to end block strings without losing too much pressure.

H. Demon Breath – First part of move advances forward - Reduced frames of first hit by 10(-10F on block) - Reduced push back on block for first hit - Midair combo counter usage of 2nd hit changed to 1

We will have to wait and see exactly what they mean by “first part of move advances forwards.” Will this be something like the ex version of Raijin Stance? Looks like it still doesn’t get 2 hits on block, which is too bad. Since it’s 120 damage, though, perhaps it might finally find some use in corner combos?

EX Dragon Uppercut – Removed forward movement - Completely invincible from startup to finish

So Heihachi now has a true dp if he wants to spend some meter. One thing I notice here is that they didn’t reduce the blockstun by 10f like they did with most other dps in the game. Reasonably safe tag on block, I wonder?

EX Raijin Stance – Damage 50+50(100)->130+80(210) - Removed 8F(-12F on block) - Reduced push back on block

A damage increase on this is good for those situations where you use it to tag out and end up hitting with it. Removed 8f seems to mean removed 8f from the recovery animation. Again, possible use in corner combos? With cl.HK being cancellable, we can now chain into this on block for a safe tag if we have meter to burn and we really need to get Hei out.

Neck Breaker – Damage 120->130
Broken Toy – Damage 120->130

With throws being 5f, we will likely be seeing more of these, so a damage buff is good.

In general, it looks like gameplay with Hei will remain largely the same, but us Heihachi players will likely have to remove f.LP>LP as a pressure tool completely, which may make convincing people to stop pushing buttons so you can f.LK or b.LP a little more difficult. ****

436

f.LP>LP xx MP Demon Breath won’t be a true blockstring, right? Curious to see if f.LP > LP xx MP Demon Breath (even on block) - LP Raijin would be decent counterhit bait.

And doesn’t LP Demon Breath have enough pushback to make 3 fr. jabs a non-issue for punishment? Shouldn’t it technically be “safe” except for super punishes?

Trying to brainstorm some new solutions for his pressure game.

437

Yeah, I think -3f on lp demon’s breath should be safe now that Cody’s c.LK is no longer an issue (LP Rising Upper was unsafe against Cody…), but you no longer get to continue to pressure for free after forcing them to block it.

I think the problem with using LP Raijin after a blocked Demon’s Breath (current or 2013 iteration) is that a lot of people tend to jump after blocking at Demon’s Breath, and I don’t think LP Raijin would recover in time to block. If they try to walk into range and poke you, though, they should run into those 13 active frames, so it’s an option to keep in mind, but probably not a well you would go to particularly often.

I think f.LP > LP xx MP Demon’s breath might actually be a true blockstring, since I seem to remember f.LP > LP xx LP Rising upper being a blockstring, and the startup on the two moves is the same.

I feel like the biggest issue introduced by this LP Demon’s Breath change are that you now can’t go for a s.LK into anything without the risk of losing your pressure if it’s blocked. Stuff like c.LP, s.LK xx LP Demon’s Breath now ends pressure on block, instead of of continuing it. Look like we might have to use jabs more to keep people blocking, and use f.LK a little more (especially with throws being buffed as they are.)

438

Do you think people will be as keen to jump given the improved AA across the board in v.2013?

I can only assume they changed DB to make re-applying pressure as risky as it is for other characters. If this is the case, do you think the devs are pushing Hei to use CADC off of that cancelable cl.hk? Perhaps the block stun of a heavy attack makes it viable considering Hei’s poor dash?

So many questions… getting that lab itch.

439

Good point about the improved AA. It’s going to depend on how well Hei’s new AA covers the region just above his head. As it stands, it’s a range where a lot of characters can get a crossup by jumping at you.

I get the impression that they do seem to be pushing Hei towards CADC pressure. I don’t know if this is a good thing, considering that he is close to having the most required charge frames in the game before dashing is possible, which makes his CADC pressure even worse. There’s a list for that around somewhere, but I remember Hei being pretty close to the top.

Regarding blockstun vs dash speed, Ryan Hunter did a write up on that somewhere along the way that made some good points. It’s not really about whether or not you are negative after a CADC, it’s more about if your opponent has enough time to react. If somebody has a 16f dash and ends up at -2, you have 18f to react correctly, which can sometimes be difficult if the CADC catches you by surprise. With Hei’s slow dash and high minimum charge frames, you may end up giving your opponent close to 30f to react, which is plenty of time to get things done if you are facing a competent opponent. I can’t seem to find the minimum charge frames or the dash frames at the moment, but if I come across them, I will post an update.

440

They’re in the guide. When I get home from work/practice I’ll post them.

So maybe instead of extended pressure strings we’ll be setting up short bursts of high/low/throw? Something like f+mp, c.lp, st.lk/b+lp/throw/f+lk?