The Heihachi Mishima Thread

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter x Tekken
401

Ah, I see… using the threat of a follow up counter to add +mindfuck frames.

Good stuff. I’ve used lp ru during blockstrings as counter bait before; I rarely use raijin, except as a surprise counterpoke at midrange. Seems like I should reconsider.

Random stuff:
[LIST]
[]I’ve been having a fair bit of success with b+lk (tatarigoroshi?) against characters who have a dominant go-to crouching poke. (julia, nina, ryu, kazuya, etc.) After getting hit into a full combo, opponents seem a lot more hesitant to throw these out there, easing Hei’s approach. You can also use it after a blocked lp demon breath to catch poorly timed counterattacks.
[]I’m starting to see higher level players raw launch mid-range f+mp. Lightning crush (f+lk) seems like it’ll be a safer way to establish contact as the game matures. Also great for counterhit setups.
[]Hammer punch is still incredible - it blows my mind every time it beats a super
[]I got my shit pushed in last night in endless by Gr8 Zero’s Ryu/Hei team last night (I think I took 2 of 9 matches?). He controlled the space above Hei’s head (his biggest defensive liability IMO) as effectively as I’ve seen. I hope he learned as much from my use of f+lk and b+lk as I did from watching his sick air-to-air defense.
[]Playing against an ever-increasing number of Julias and Ravens makes me weep for Hei’s pitiful backdash.
[]Losing a shit-ton of BP in ranked (down to about 9250 BP since hitting B+) is demoralizing, but playing against some of the best in the game has been a learning experience.
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Keep the tech/play notes coming, Roujin. Hopefully we’ll see some Heihachi players make a top showing at a major tournament soon. (It won’t be me. I’m ass.)

402

Well I doubt I’ll do much either, I am average. Sadly after Evo I’ll be dropping this game for TTT2 as its my preferred flavour of VS Fightering.

But I’ll gladly post what I can here in the meantime.

I think I mentioned this earlier but if im at full screen I like to charge cancel Raijin into a forward dash into hell axle, it is semi effective at hitting people rushing up to hit me if they think they can reach me before the super would have come out. Gimmicky but fun when it works.

403

One thing I’m struggling with, what are Heihachi’s best reversals, and when should I consider using each one?

404

[LIST]
[*]Counter: Probably Hei’s best wakeup reversal - active on frame one and stuffs just about everything that isn’t airborne. If the enemy attacks high, you can tag cancel into 400+ dmg.
The Catch: Anyone who has experience against Hei will be aware of this and plan accordingly, usually by baiting with a neutral jump, going for a throw, or relying on safe jumps. One bad read will definitely cost you.

[*]:lp: or :2p: Rising Upper - Crushes standing attacks and leads to a full combo. Useful against characters who rely on overheads/meaty jab pressure on wakeup. EX version also catches people who jump back trying to bait out a counter. Not nearly as much of a commitment as the counter.
The Catch: Loses to any low. I don’t often recommend this, except as maybe an abare option once the opponent is nervous about your counter. Truth be told, I probably use this more often than I should.

[*]EX Raijin: Full-body invulnerable frames 1-12.
The Catch: Super high commitment. If you whiff this or it’s blocked, you’re eating a max punish. If you have two bars, you can safely tag cancel after the first hit, but there are better things you can do with your meter.
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My recommendation: Hei doesn’t have a nice tag-cancelable meterless invulnerable reversal like a lot of other characters. It’s not what people like to hear, but on wakeup, you should get used to blocking/teching with Hei. You should occasionally throw in a counter to keep people honest, but don’t rely on it or you will get punished. Hard.

405

Seconded, Hei is not the guy for reversals.

Counter is really just about your only option, and even then you should only use it if you know that your opponent is pressing buttons or in the middle of something you can interrupt. Even if it works once, that’s all you get against a smart opponent and then you really are forced to go back to blocking and teching on wakeup.

If Hei had a proper invincible reversal on top of his mix-ups, hammer punch and counter he would be insane.

406

This was awesome. Thanks for the thorough reply.

407

So with the advent of the new characters, I thought I would attempt to do my part to revitalize the Heihachi forums with a writeup on Raijin stance.

For a long time, I asked myself “What exactly is Raijin stance for?” Sure, it gets a crumple on CH, but it’s very punishable on whiff, and it kills momentum. Sure, the ex version has all sorts of invincibility, and is great for tags on grounded opponents, but if they happen to jump, they have all the time in the world to punish with whatever they want. Then came the epiphany.

Raijin stance has 13 active frames. That means the :lp: version is potentially +11 on block. After a bit of exploring, here are some of the setups I came up with.

[LIST]
[]After a dragon upper followup ender, you can get a great meaty on quickstands by doing :mp: raijin a fraction of a second after you land.
[]You can also get a great meaty on regular stands in the same situation by doing a forward** jump :hk**: after the dragon upper followup (crosses up quickstands), and then doing a slightly delayed :lp: Raijin when you notice they didn’t quickstand.
[*]After landing a super (which, incidentally, is great for throwing people back into the corner) you can dash forward once and do an immediate :hp: Raijin. This one is a little more difficult to get properly meaty, and :hp: Raijin stance is normally -5, so I usually find that I get at most a few frames of advantage, but it negates the biggest downside of his super quite nicely, in that it allows you to keep pressure on after tossing them across the screen.
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Now, with regard to followups after these meaty Raijins, there are a few options, and it’s up to you to adjust on the fly based on the distance you end up at.

[LIST]
[]In general, I’ve found that most meaty mp Raijin stances leave you close enough to link f.:lp: > :mp:.
[]Just outside of f.:lp: range, which you often see if you just hit with the tip, you can link :lk: xx :lp: rising upper.
[*]At the maximum possible followup range, where :lk: xx :lp: RU whiffs, you can either chain into a booster from lk or use lk, hp, :p::p: Rising Upper to start off your combo.
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I think one of the more interesting benefits of this particular meaty is that the last few active frames of Raijin stance look an awful lot like recovery frames. I find myself getting counter hits as people punish buttons to try and punish what they think is recovery.

edit: formatting

408

I’m Dhalsim player and I have no clue what to do against Heihachi, can someone give me some tips?

He seems nigh invincible. His f.lp > mp overhead thing seems perfectly safe unless he does it right on top of me, his j.hk feels like it has i-frames sometimes and my AA is ony 60 damage compared to the 4-500 he does when jumping in, which makes trying to play an AA game difficult. If I backdash out of f.lp I get caught by the low follow up, and I can’t jump away cause Dhalsims jump is super slow, I get hit by the overhead follow up and groundbounced, I can’t teleport away because there’s not a big enough gap in the strings for tigerknee’d teleport and ground teleport is terrible, allowing him to react and jump at me, starting the process over again. I know I can alpha counter but it’s difficult to react to the f.lp with it and if I try to AC the second hit then I’m put into the high low guessing game which I have to react to /and/ then alpha counter. And I know I can mash super through the f.lp strings, but 2 bars every time a Hei gets in seems… Ridiculously unfair.

I’m not whining, at least, I’m trying not to. I’m just out of clues and the Dhalsim forum is… Not all that alive or kicking to help me.

I’ll hit the lab myself, but if anyone can give me any common knowledge that I’m missing I’d really appreciate it.

Thanks for your guys time.

409

I don’t think his j. HK has invincibility frames and it can be out-prioritized in the air. One thing to note is that his f. lp, mp / fp string can be interrupted if you have really good timing after the f. lp. If they start spamming it and can get the timing down, you can interrupt it with an ex move (or counter for the characters that have one). Also, it is - 4 on block, so you do get some advantage if they don’t hit you.

I’m not sure about the match up because I don’t play many dhalsims. I actually initially learned to play Hei because I didn’t understand how to beat him.

410

Oh, factually I know it doesn’t have i-frames, it just seems to beat my AA more often than not, and Dhalsims AA is not a bad one. :stuck_out_tongue:

And as Sim, I have no reversal specials, EX or otherwise. It’s super or team super, otherwise I kinda just have to hold that mixup, a bunch of my other characters have ex reversals to go through it, but Sim has more or less no options other than ‘sit in this 50/50’ mix up.

Funnily enough I was thinking of trying Hei out too, I may just.

411

JammyBoo, all is not lost. This matchup is actually pretty tough for Hei if you’re aware of his game plan and your countermeasures. I’ve played a few matches against SimSim (He’s awesome and I hope he chimes in here) and here’s what I’ve learned:
[LIST]
[]Hei’s j.HK feels so dominant because it has more active frames than comparable moves from the rest of the cast. Because of this, the f+MK and f+HK that some Dhalsim players use as a long range anti-air are rendered ineffective. Alternatively, you can concede that airspace and try to tripguard with your low zoom normals, or you can try to go air-to-air with a nj.f+MP
[]s.MP will beat every jump-in Hei can throw at you. It’s just that good.
[]Use your limbs liberally - Hei’s walkspeed is among the worst in the game, but…
[]Mix up your crouching, standing, and sniper pokes so Hei can’t just raw launch or counter you on reaction to buttons.
[]If you block Hei’s f.lp > mp string (the overhead), you can punish it with s.lk. Average Hei players don’t keep track of who can and can’t punish this string and consequently use this way too much - make them pay.
[]If you don’t feel comfortable reading and punishing Hei’s high/low game (and really, who does?) you can input a teleport as soon as you block the first hit of Hei’s strings. If Hei goes for either the overhead or low follow-up, you’ll safely tp away before the second strike hits. If Hei goes with the lp follow-up, since it’s a true blockstring, nothing happens and Dhalsim blocks.
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I think Dhalsim vs. Hei is a really cool fight - it’s a “classic” matchup between two diametrically opposed playstyles; Dhalsim does his best to dictate the pace of the match and maintain near-full-screen spacing while Hei does everything he can to get in at that chewy, yoga-flavored center. Just accept that when Hei gets in, it’s his turn to dictate the pace of the match; be patient and look for your opportunity to escape and get the match back on your own terms.

I’ll have SimSim and eDane come take a look so you get some real expert advice. Good luck out there!

412

I think this is what I have the most trouble with, I’m so used to controlling the match that I feel antsy blocking with Sim. xD

I wish SimSim was on Ps3, I’d love to see how my Sim fares against a good one!

And thank you for all the awesome advice, I’ll be more patient and keep in mind what you told me. Thanks for the help. :slight_smile:

There’s a lot of frantic backdash mashing and swearing, I’ll tell you that. :stuck_out_tongue:

413

Hey guys! I’ll give my 2 cents when I get back from my university today! All I’ll say for now is that Heihachi up close probably is one of Sim’s worst matchups yes, and when used as Dane use him: 2nd character that gets tagged in for a combo and following mixup, can be very hard to deal with. As point character, Heihachi is easier to deal with, as Sim can zone him pretty well (Watch your limbs though, cause Heihachi will snatch them:P)

414

Quantum, I think you’ve done a great job of getting us started here. These are all great points that do a good job of laying down the general gameplan for a sim player. A few things I’d like to add.

[LIST]
[]Something I’ve noticed SimsimIV doing in our many matches is using df + lk to slide under jump ins. This sets you up to push buttons after Heihachi lands with a cross under to mess up his blocking. A word of warning, however, goes back to what Quantum was saying about about Hei’s j.HK. Not only does it have a lot of active frames, it also has a great crossup hitbox, so there’s a real possibility of a late j.HK hitting you when you try to slide under. This brings me to my next point…
[]Heihachi will probably be jumping at you. A lot. I think this is both particularly scary for a Sim player and particularly useful for the Heihachi player because the risk-reward on jump-ins is heavily in Heihachi’s favor. Hei can kill Sim pretty easily in 2 combos, so if he lands one off a j.HK, that puts you in a “guess right or lose” situation. This means you need to discourage jumps hard. Using b.mp as your go-to AA doesn’t really discourage jumping in this matchup, because the damage from it is so relatively low. Better options are AA super, Alpha countering the jump in with a tag to a partner, or charging a yoga blast in anticipation of a jump.
[]Sim’s AC is excellent, and can be tagged to big damage with extra meter. I think this is your best tool in dealing with Heihachi’s pressure once he finally works his way in. Hei’s f.lp strings are relatively easy to AC because of the long blockstun.
[]Beware Hei’s b.lp overhead. It beats your fastest poke, and perhaps more importantly, it trades with your otherwise fairly safe reversal super, letting Heihachi combo afterwards.
[/LIST]
I expect Simsim will have more to add. Hope this helps!

415

Well I guess a lot has been said by now, but let’s see if I can add a couple of thoughts. Heihachi is really slow as mentioned, so you can actually abuse yoga sniper quite a bit on him, and still not loose too much screen, because Heihachi can’t advance that much. Also a Heihachi that tries to parry limbs will be hit by a sniper. Watch out for Heihachi’s trying to reflect fireballs. Not because you should be afraid of them (It seems to reflect the fireball for a really short range), but because you can teleport punish for free:P

Also a Heihachi usually use either of these two ways of advancing: Jump Hk or his far reaching low limb that links into a combo (Don’t know what this normal is excactly:P I know Dane says that mp isn’t that much of a jump discourager, but most Heihachi’s will be pretty frustrated when you anti air their every jump and either cancel into a fireball or go straight for sniper/low mixup after the anti air. Try to move in and out of anti air range and bait Hei into jumping. Notice if the Hei always uses HK in the air, because if he does, you can use mp to anti air from seemingly impossible ranges. If he empty jumps on purpose however, he can easily bait your anti air and combo you as he lands.

If you catch on to the Heihachi using a lot of that fast and far reaching low hitting limb, you can actually react to this with launcher.

I didn’t know I could punish Heihachi’s staple overhead with back short actually. I thought I had tried and not succeeded that enough to give up on it. The teleport in between overhead or low is a good option though, but don’t get predictable with it. Tbh, you shouldn’t really get in a position to get repeatable, as you should keep Heihachi out by all means.

416

Told you these guys were good. :wink:

417

This is good advice, but be careful of getting too yoga sniper happy. Heihachi can super you on hit with proper timing.

And careful Quantum. I’ll get a swollen head.

418

Look, we play against a lot of exceptional players on a fairly regular basis - Hunter, Jibbo, Dieminion, gridman, SimSim, etc. Against these guys, while I lose more than I win, I feel like I can compete. When we play, I feel completely helpless; while beating me like a drum is by no means the metric by which a quality player should be judged, I’d like to think that it means something.

You’re the best XBL Hei out there by a significant margin. Deal with it.

p.s. You should add your clairvoyant counters to the counter compendium.

419

I will bashfully set aside the rest of your post (<3) and point out that your own third eye was getting some exercise today with those half screen counters against my Jack. I feel like a certain amount of prescience is integral to being a successful Heihacihi player. Something I just started doing recently is forgoing a crouch tech after blocking a jump-in so I can punish the inevitable neutral jump with furious anger. People just love to neutral jump Heihachi from point blank.

420

I just realized that I don’t think I’m using Heihachi’s full screen super as much as I should. It can punish raw tags so well. I need to start using that, especially since I basically never use meter with Heihachi except for the occasional team super or reversal EX Rising Uppercut (which probably isn’t the best idea anyway).

Also, Heihachi seems like a character that can easily lead into a pandora set-up, since he can combo or set-up a ground bounce so easily, either off of his one tekken chain or his counter. It’s part of the reason that I’ve been considering a Yoshimitsu/Heihachi team; a simple combo into Heihachi’s ground bounce chain, Pandora into Yoshimitsu with the Pandora power gem into Super can easily lead into 600 damage and you only have to start out with 2 bars.