The Hakan General Discussion Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1121

Yeah, holding kick is risky since if they just sit there… still, it’ll provoke srk’s and backdashes against Dudley and Sagat. That will prevent them from always trying to srk and backdash on reaction, because they might get punished. Risk/reward is such that it’s something to do only occasionally. If we can get an srk eating oil dive set up against them, that would be much better, of course. It’d be nice to have an oil dive to eat Guile’s wake-up flash kicks as well.

So good news:

So I’m doing this particular set up: slide/press, backdash, buffered 360 motion into walking backward a particular/significant distance, lk oil dive.

Against Ryu: Beats his super. Beats all jumps and non-EX SRK’s and beats him if he crouches!!! Poor Ryu.
Against Ken: Beats his super! Beats all jumps and lp srk and beats him if he crouches.
Against Sakura: Beats all non-EX SRK’s. Beats all jumps. Beats her if she crouches.
Against Akuma: Won’t beat SRK’s, but it’ll beat his super. Again, crouching and jumping are beaten. (I did slightly different timing, that did beat his SRK’s, so we can find that again).
Against Gouken, beats non-EX tetsu, beats crouches and jumps.

Against almost everyone: Beats all crouches and jumps. Sure it beats a lot of non-EX reversals, too.

Apparently, this is the sweet spot of the lk oil dive. We have been playing with a handicapped oil dive, my Hakan brethren, until this is mastered. Side note: don’t mention this on our opponents’ forums, please :).

1122

[edit]Scratch that one. Too gimmicky.

Here is another sweet-spot oil dive we can put into use regularly, and it’s familiar. MP rocket, dash, dash, buffer 360 motion toward back, walk for split second, lk oil dive. Not too difficult. Will beat all Ryu’s srk’s, jumps, stands/walks and crouches. That is so much tougher than the old technique, it’s ridiculous.

[edit again]Here’s one to add to the corner trap: oily hp rocket, back dash, buffer 360 into crouch, crouch for split second, lk oil dive.

I’m thinking this is worth a new thread, to collect the sweet-spot wake-up oil dives in one place. What do you guys think? We have like four so far. I’m sure there are more and better ones. No more jumping away on wake- up for all opponents. Made it way too easy for them.

1123

The sweet spot oil dive works against Adon’s lk and mk rising Jaguar as well as his Ultra 1.

So I’ve been using the set ups (as they are quite similar to my own set-ups already, so it’s an easy transition for me), and they are great fun. Playin’ my bro’ today, it’s a good laugh to dive Akuma on his srk or super. ha ha Plus, it’s even more fun to hold the lk button and make him miss his srk. ha ha

The easiest to get in are #1 the mp rocket, dash, dash, buffered 360 into back, tiny step, and lk dive and #2 oiled slide/press, back dash, tiny step forward, hk oil dive. If you guys have a set up for these I’d love to hear it. This makes things so much easier against shotokens (and apparently Adon, too). Holy cow.

Also, not sure the name sweet spot oil dive is awesome, but it makes sense at least. It’s also shorter than uncrouchable, unjumpable un-non-EX SRKable oil dive. Maybe just SS oil dive from now on.

1124

This sounds almost too good to be true, I’m in training mode as we speak! So wait, it beats jumps, crouches, AND SRK’s?

1125

I’m at work right now (lol, reading srk) but I will check this out when I get home. If it beats srks, crouches, and jumps… my god.

1126

Sorry to get you too excited. Mostly, it beats all of Ryu’s non-EX SRK’s and Sakura’s. It is extremely hard to get it just right to beat Akuma’s and Ken’s mp and hp SRK’s, although I’ve done that, too, a couple times. (It looks freaking sweet, by the way, as the little flame/dark hado gets left behind as you throw them). Hopefully, there’s a good set-up to get that to work properly. Plus, it doesn’t beat Sagat’s or Dudley’s at all, which sucks. Still, the fact that it beats jumps and crouching will make them anxious to either backdash or SRK, both of which can be punished with a little delay on this oil dive set up. (All SS oil dives must be done from a longer range that will cause lp SRK’s to whiff, if you hold the button on a lk oil dive. Can be done with hk or EX from further, of course).

Plus, it’s pretty difficult to pull off, so it’s not a total game changer. I’m going to say that with practice, at least against Ryu and Sakura, it will be a game changer. Definitely a big help, regardless. Moves Hakan higher in his tier if not up a tier. Much more pressure.

Also, I’ve noticed that if you’re a little late for the wake-up SRK, opponents, trying to srk on reaction might get stuffed anyway. Happened to me a couple times against my Hakan dummy.

A little info. on what it does:

Almost everyone: beats jumps and crouching.
Ryu and Sakura: Beats his super, beats non-EX SRK’s. Doesn’t beat her super.
Ken and Akuma: beats supers. Beats lp SRK and if you’re perfect, mp and hp, too. You may have better success with hk or EX oil dives from long range, beating their mp and hp SRK’s. I’ve done it that way, so it might be the trick.
Adon: beats lk and mk rising jaguar and Ultra 1.
Juri: beats non-EX wheel kick wake up.
T.Hawk: beats all non-EX SRK’s.
Dudley and Sagat: doesn’t beat SRK’s at all.

If Wildcat doesn’t already know this, clearly, Hakan could be higher tier with this technique. Frankly, I don’t feel like ever doing a regular uncrouchable oil dive ever again, after seeing this technique. It’s so much better, even though it’s nearly impossible to beat Ken and Akuma’s mp and hp SRK’s. People will definitely have to rely more on normals, EX SRK’s and backdashes to escape, instead of mere SRK’s and jumps.

1127

Define that. So… not Blanka, honda, sim, etc?

1128

Note that you can’t Level 3 Focus crumple Fei Long and connect Super. Just lost because of that, fuu-

1129

Yeah, no Blanka, Sim, Honda nor Cammy. The usual.

So I’ve been able to pretty consistently pull off two of the SS dive set ups I invented. I can’t get the other two to work well enough. The two are as follows:

#1: Oil up, slide/press, back dash, buffer 360 into tiny step backward, hk dive.
#2: In the corner, oil up, hp rocket, back dash, buffer 360 into tiny step back, mk dive.

Clearly, both long range and both oily. I can’t freakin’ repeat beating Ken’s and Akuma’s hp SRK’s, though. Seems one of them was a weird one, like EX rocket, 360 and hold down lk (I think) and dive. At least in both cases, you can provoke an SRK and punish by holding the kick button to delay.

[edit]
So here’s a third that I was able to pull off twice, reprogramming the dummy. Not super easy, but it clearly works.

#3: In the corner, oily mp rocket, back dash, buffer 360 into walk forward, EX dive.

[edit]So I was able to stuff SRK’s again with a dry set up in close, but as it turns out, it wasn’t uncrouchable. Maybe it’s possible to do this as an uncrouchable, but certainly it does beat jumps and SRK’s:

I. Slide, press, back dash, buffer 360 motion into walking backward, lk oil dive. You’re also in nice position to bait a HP or EX SRK, to punish.

[edit]So I was going to watch the Warriors game, but they are sucking so hard tonight. Instead, I discovered a nice set up to stuff Ken’s and Akuma’s hp and mp SRK’s and jumps (not uncrouchable).

II. Dry MP rocket, dash, dash, buffer 360 into step backward (two little squares in training) and lk oil dive.

But it gets better.** This also beats Honda’s EX headbutt!!** Saweeet. Actually, I decided to name this oil dive the S dive, because it is sweet as hell to beat Honda’s EX headbutt. Also to represent the S’s in YESSSSS!!! Same as SS dive but not uncrouchable.

Hakan… POWER UP… er… tier up.

Edit: I was unable to get S dive I to work against Honda’s wake-up EX headbutt, but it should work against a Honda doing an EX headbutt on reaction. It’s still called the S dive, even when it doesn’t work on Honda, though. Too bad. I was able to repeat S dive II’s effect on Honda, though.

1130

So I decided to move this discussion into another thread: http://shoryuken.com/f335/oil-dive-set-up-compendium-254075/

1131

I just wanted to announce that I got my first in-battle, descending neutral-jump oil dive. I kept EX rocketing my opponent, so they started throwing in j.hk. neutral j.hp. I lk dove the neutral jump, which forced them to start empty jumping. I lost the battle… badly, but I won the battle within the battle. Once this technique comes naturally to me instead of me having to force it, it will be a nice tool. I just get it in once in a while, and people suddenly have to change tactics. It works against pretty much everyone (including Bison’s neutral j.hk!), although it’s obviously harder for those with quicker jumps (perhaps hard enough to not be worth doing).

Again, you can do pretty good defense while attempting this, by buffering in the 360 motion during block stun into c.defense and holding there until you’re ready to hit lk. You can also walk backward a bit, if you need to, to get the aim right. Also, I was using the lk oil dive to dive under the neutral jump, giving me gauge and giving them a whiff. Safer than going for the hit and significantly easier. You can, in fact, do lk oil dive into crouch using lp+lk, which will tech throws.

1132

So I made an SS dive thread, so people could help develop this and to give people a list of set ups to practice or at least with which they can experiment. http://shoryuken.com/f335/sweet-spot-oil-dive-compendium-265181/

Just a note for everyone: the sweet spot for lk oil dive appears to be one (big) training mode square. The EX dive’s sweet spot is two squares. Do the math, and I guess you have 1 1/3 square for mk and 1 2/3 for hk. Maybe we ought to select the training level, when we play as Hakan. In the corner, at least, it would be easy to measure!

1133

Here’s a fun one after a dry air throw:

back dash, coward crouch, lk oil dive

May be the easiest SS dive so far…

[edit] I have one easier one, actually. Much more useful, too XD.

1134

Hi all, I’m thinking about picking up Hakan, so I’ve been doing some research on him recently. I have a few questions regarding his strategy:[list=1]
[*] How do you usually play when momentum is neutral and you are not oiled up (e.g. the beginning of the round)? Are there certain things that you usually fish for in order to get your oily offense started?

[*] Do you usually know when your oil is about to run out, and if so, how does it influence your gameplay?

[*] What are Hakan’s wakeup options without oil?

[*] What are his anti-air options with and without oil?

[*] What are his punishment options?[/list]

1135

  1. Obviously your looking for a situation that will allow you to oil up safely, whether that be getting a knockdown or putting your opponent far enough away or committed to something that allows for this. I usually open the round defensively to see how my opponent reacts to me putting distance between us. Some people are a bit passive, and you can oil up safely a few times. Others will rush at you and you need to anti-air or poke accordingly until you can score that knockdown.

  2. Personally, i’ve gotten used to the timings. I rarely use mk oil, so i’ve just learned how long lk and hk last (and the occasional ex). In AE this will be very different because oil times stack, hopefully we can modify our games to always be oiled up.

  3. Without oil, things are bad. Unless you have U2 stocked you are really just forced to block jump ins and safe jumps. Even the range on your ex 360 p is so bad that it doesn’t deter meaty attacks, and if you have U1 your opponent will almost always resort to safejumping you.

  4. Without oil, I go for a2a j.mp, a2a air grab, s.hp, t.lp, and lp oil slide, in that order. Play around with those, and see which you find to be the most effective. With oil, I almost always go for a bdnc c.lk chain or c.mk to slide.

  5. Punishment is usually c.mk xx hp slide. If you have the time, focus xx dash, t.mp xx hp slide is good too. If you need to build meter, go for a hp rocket, and if your opponent doesn’t know the specific counter (c.jab), t.mp to oil dive (i think hk) works great for damage, meter, and getting your opponent to the corner.

Hope this helps.

1136

Nasty technique: oil dive to corner, hp slide, to push opponent against wall, immediate jump kick into either (true) cross up or jump kick, depending on timing. If your opponent is one whom you can’t keep in the corner anyway, this is the go to, I think. EX slide will push them further, so if you want this bad enough, you can use EX to get it, too.

1137

So this might come in handy: while oily with EX meter, after a jump-in from an opponent that is problematic to parry, block, buffer 360 into crouching defense and literally just mash two kick buttons. If they try to throw you instantly or after a c.lk, you hit them for huge damage. If they jump in and jump again, you dive under them or perhaps throw them out of a backward jump. The EX oil dive takes pretty massive damage, too, so it should be worth doing in at least some cases, especially against Chun who can’t take a hit and does that double-hit j.hp, preventing the parry.

1138

dondt try so desperatly to find a use for a at BEST medicore move… its a gimmic you can sometimes throw in for hughe advantage but if you abuse it too often you are just a bad hakan…

you realy get tendicious about that move maybe post all DDT relatet only in one post your spamming habbit is awsome… there are better options out there as Antiairs as excample learn to propper use his normals… i would not say its a good AA but at least better then your gimmicboxes…

1139

You’re really a pugnacious individual. I never said use it often, first of all. Second of all, you’re a douche. If you’re talking about oil dives in general, not using them often, if you do them the way I’ve been doing them, you can do them regularly with success. The plan, of course, is to train people to try to deal with it, so then I go back to safer stuff. I’ve been spamming dives lately on even good players, with high PP. They’re not ready, so it’s been good against them.

I’m aware that the back dash will become a problem at some point. I’m not stupid. But Hakan is not a complete character unless you master the wake-up dive, stuffing SRK’s, jumps and crouches.

As far as spamming, you spammed quite a bit early on, when Hakan was new:

Your posts per day: 1.57
My posts per day: 1.37

It just so happens that my use of DDT has turned a corner, becoming fairly new to me lately. Relative to how dead this thread is, I’m a total spammer. But that’s totally relative. The SS dive is very nice, particularly against SRK spamming Ryu’s, and the use of the dive after buffering the 360 while defending a jump in is worth exploring, IMO. This stuff will dry out soon enough, so there will be a lack of spamming at that point. Once I’m done with this stuff, this thread is going to be mostly dead, with most people moving on to MvC3. I will be, too. When I’m done, my posts per day will probably not have caught up with yours.

Lastly, what is “tendicious?” Do you mean tenacious? Tedious?

1140

Lmfao…you just couldn’t take it anymore could you mordie :p?

Reaper, no one is saying that all of the things mordie posts are completely solid strategies/tactics that will completely change the way he plays, but give him credit for being the only one here posting consistent bits of information. That’s how characters get developed, sharing and fleshing out every little thing until you start to acquire big pictures. Frankly I’m just impressed he’s still doing it with MvC3 out >.<.

But mordie’s not getting out of hand with every post, saying that Hakan is god because of what he found. You, however, are consistently aggressive with most people here whenever they say something you don’t like. You can be objective, just tone it down.

Aaaanyways, I actually came in to talk about AE not hitting consoles. I don’t know if I can go back to playing SSF4 knowing that Hakan isn’t getting those amazing changes. It’s going to kill me if normal super is going to remain the tournament standard :sad:

EDIT: Hoo, might have spoken too soon. Looks like it’s still up for debate, as Ono acted like it was still happening on his twitter…crazy ono. Close one, I was about to bust out the torch.