they cant do that anymore by the way, them being lifted in the air from buttslam doesn’t happen anymore, that was the biggest nerf for me, it puts on the level of a lot of other reversal supers because of that. I based a large part of my game on the fact that the assist lifts them off the ground on hit(its really important for my combos to not use unnecessary otgs so i can get extra damage, OTGs) So actually almost everyone will be pretty bat at converting buttslams into full combos from mid range to fullscreen. Unless of course he changed that since i saw it.
im pretty sure you cant get left/right mixups from cerecopter since you are in blockstun the whole time. blockstun negates left right only high/low is still viable.
I use cercopter a lot w resets. If you get on the otherside of the cerecopter before it activates, you can play mind games galore w left/right mix ups. Especially if the character is floating in the air while Cerebella is just coming out. I use a 3 man team, it happens a lot Double and Peacock resets that end in avery with the opponent in the air
Cerebella (about to land but not attacking yet) xxx Floaty Opponent xxx Double or Peak on ground
floaty opponent that just got hit w avery usually ends up in a world of punishment.
Another common situation for my Painwheel is Cerebella locking opponent in hitstun, then activating fly and going left and right above the opponents head until Cerecoptor is about to end before attacking. Almost impossible for opponent to tell where to block considering I can’t even tell which side of the opponent I’m on when this happens.
…PW flying back and forth over opp head until cerecoptor ends
Cerebella (in cerecoptor mode) xxx Opponent sucked in Hit stun
B: Filia
Her combos are easy, but her assists are garbage except HK hairball. Blockbusters are pretty effective too.
Filia’ has a few really good assists, such as hairball, her dps, and cr. mk.
whoa whoa whoa. im with girly on this one. her DP assist is one of the best in the game. another of those invincible assists with a million years to combo off of it ala napalm pillar. i played a guy who ran fortune/filia and basically after every dp assist he landed he would catch me with nom on the way down. fucking well annoying. i think she is probs b tier but not for the reasons you list.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/t/skullgirls-psn-matchmaking-thread-dat-gppo/145879page-30
We’re thinking about having monthly tier tournaments. That one page has it all. Anyone interested?
I’m jealous.
Because im bored and there isnt much discussion going on, my thoughts on how the patch MAY turn out:
The patch throws in alot of system mechanic changes, most notable imho are reduced overall damage via ips nerfs, slight speed up, and throws now incurring 50% scaling.
Mechanics only peacock looks to benefit hugely from this and i even think she might be on the rise perhaps up to best character in game, though probably not.
Throws being scaled now benefits peacock alot cause it means that characters that get in against her and throw will be dong less to her… Major benefit. Another benefit is the ips damage being lower… Peacock not really using huge combos to win comes out on top of this. The speed up is the only general nerf to peacock as increased speed tends to favor rushdown over zoning.
Other thoughts, filia and parasoul benefit tremendously as well from the throw nerf. Neither characters offenses were throw based,mbeing much more high/low based. Meaning that their offenses will suffer less scaling over a period of time than characters that do rely on throw/low mixups. I see this as making both characters more powerful…simply put if i get in 10 times and my damage is reduced to 50%, 4 of those times, versus only once for the 2 aforementioned characters, there is a net gain in power for them.
Also, because of the throw nerf i think this might bring trios back as a syringer force in the game simply because of the dhc damage scaling reset… Simply put trios will be able to dhc from throw starters to artificially increase damage whereas duos will only have the one time option. Solos may also be more effective since they do so much damage that throw starters from them will still hurt… Though of course not as much as now, there will probably be less times when an opponent is more willing to be thrown in a reset versus them than against say, duos.
So my list goes
Filia
Parasoul
Peacock
Everyone else tbd.
I see duos being weaker and trios and solos being stronger, which i see as a good thing. The throw nerf, even though i think it very adversely affects 2 of my mains, is a good thing as i think in the long run it will force more neutral since it inherently forces more resets.
Speaking of resets, they are one of the bigger reasons why i feel parasoul and filia will be strong… Neither character really specializes n throw resets yet both have good high/low or left/rights meaning that their offense will be reduced in damage alot less than other characters.
So just some general highly speculative because im bored theoryfighter.
-edit… Oh yeah, forgot to mention something BIG, one of the main reasons besides the ones listed for
Peacock being better is the complete nerf of hk bombers invincibility… This move owns peacock pre patch… Post patch it wont own shit against her… And that is a huge buff. Just tried to play my friends peacock/filia without hk bomber and totally couldnt do shit… Once at midscreen its just call filia then teleport crossup/non crossup… Very annoying cause peacock can just teleport towards any forward based movement for a crossup and the only option besides very fast reactive blocking is to simply sit there and take major chip damage…
So yeah, post patch peacock/filia scares me. Unlike cable who had “some” troubles with homing jumps…there are no marvel homing jumps in here to bypass keepaway. And other than invincible moves i know of no way to really interact with projectile based keepaway… We may all grow a hate for peacock/ filia… It seems like it will be WAAAAAAY BETTER than peacock/double.
-dime
Aren’t tiers also about match-ups? I don’t think we should be talking about tiers and making blanket statements just about the tools of each character and what they can generally do. Like in 3S, sure Chun can easily confirm into huge damage, but specifically, she has great tools against a lot of the cast. Or like someone else said, Strider might be one thing in CvS2, but give him a Doom assist and suddenly he’s really good.
Maybe it’d make more sense to have something like a singles tier list (for what a single character can do against another single character or how they fight against assists), then a team tier list talking about who benefits from what assists and what common team compositions look like (common because you never hear anyone who plays MvC talking about how Strider/Cyclops/Ruby Heart can fight Rogue/Jill/Mega Man); then as people try more team permutations, those can be brought into the discussion as well, kinda like how no one talked about Rocket Raccoon till that one Japanese guy (sorry, bad with names) showed some stuff with him. The singles tier list would probably be easiest since you could more easily run through the match-ups.
Just think it makes more sense to look at what the characters can actually do in their match-ups to consider a tier list as opposed to just talking about character attributes. The teams thing is more complicated given the assist system and the fact that you can have a pair or a trio of characters, but Marvel players can handle the amount of team permutations by just considering what’s being used or making waves currently in the scene as opposed to trying to consider every single team build against every other possible team build.
Having said that, I think Parasoul, Fortune, Double, and Painwheel, the first three because they seem to have good answers for everything, and Painwheel because the pay off for getting in is so huge. Then Val and Filia, with Val being somewhat better because I think her tools are better (hit stun syringe for example). Then Cerebella and Peacock, but I’m not sure who of these two I’d pick last, though I lean towards Peacock because Cerebella can do some heavy damage if she gets in.
I know I was just talking about going in depth per match up but I really don’t think I have good enough experience to talk about it authoritatively. I’ve never been very great at that, either; it’s also kind of hard for me to talk about match-ups unless I either play that same match-up constantly (SSF4 Makoto vs Ryu, Ken, Chun, for example) or there’s not really much I need to do (SSF4 Chun vs Gief, aka Fierce Punch FTW).
Painwheel should be near the bottom of the list, imo. She probably has the worst defensive options in the game, so getting people off of you solo is an issue. I don’t know about Peacock being last though. Once she gets some space and puts up George and Shadows she can pressure pretty well, Filia and Valentine mobility probably give her the most trouble. Double doesn’t seem to have much going for her on point if she doesn’t have a lot of meter available.
My draft list would be:
Fortune
Parasol
Valentine
Filia
Peacock
Double
Painwheel/Cerebella
Painwheel is one of the hardest to tier characters imho… On hit shes fabulous, certainly one of the best if not the best character in the game once shes hit an opponent… Actually hitting an opponent can be tricky with her though. So to me her placement has more to do with the painwheel players neutral game ability imho.
I personally put her at mid to high mid… Wherever that might be. I think she would be alot better with a couple neutral game buffs such as quicker ground dash or actually viable midrange pokes that have priority. But that might be to much when we see how good of blockstrings to open an opponent up she has and how good her on hit vortex/reset game is.
Iow she needs to be weak somewhere. Ive never really considered her lack of reversals a major weakness… But im probably just used to characters like her, that have weak or easily baited reversal options.
-dime
Her Hatred Guard sweep is pretty good for counter poking. 4 frames until armour charge, fly cancel on hit/block, stupid range. Low short has dumb range too and leads into fierce as a confirm. Her offense & air space control are amazing, she’s just severely gimped on defense; like Valentine but without a counter.
After having a bad week of sg, im starting to think pw might actually be low tier. The things my opponents can do to me just because im pw is frustrating to play against… Im talking hardcore keepaway and always feeling outprioritized.
The matchups as i know them:
Fortune… Bad for painwheel cause fortune has a braindead way of taking pw out of flight (hk dp) into full combo… It isnt bad that its braindead… Its simply bad that it does as much damage as it does and that it neuters pws main way of offense… She can take on the matchup without flight, or with less flight… But at that point she is neutered.
Bella… Pw has a hard time dealing with bellas extremely fast jumping attacks… She has tricks like armoring through them… But if a multihit assist was called as well she gets rocked… And assists are very spammable.
Peacock… On her own peacock doesnt seem bad to be honest… But then when an aa assist like filia comes into play… Shit turns ugly… Besides the fact that filia seems to go through pws armored air normal when it would have armored against other moves (which is weird as hell) theres also the fact that lvl 1 item drop works so well against pw when filia is in the mix… Basically the way to beat filia assist is to make it wiff… Which means backing off. However lvl 1 item drop is only beatable when moving forward… This creates a very big problem as peacock can just spam those 2 together and it creates a wall against flight.
Neutral jumping in is the only way i know of to beat it flat out and that only works so well… So basically pw cant use flight much in the matchup… Also if pw is backing off to bait filia, peacock can just assist then teleport to beat out flight… It basically sends a tracking anti air assist at pw and peacock can easily combo off the otg.
The one good thing about this matchup is that pw rapes it hard if she is given an opening, but when every way she needs to use to get in gets raped hard… Its… Well… Hard.
Filia… Problems with her once again extend to pws slowness and her lack of priority… Its just really hard to not get rushed down by a good filia… And the guy i play has a trick up his sleeve to make it all work:
Slide into aa super. If pw jumps the slide and attacks then she gets aa supered everytime. Pw however doesnt have any moves to beat out slide that i know of besides armor… So filia is making an easy guess based on reaction and pw is making a hard one that only beats one of filias options. Not to mention that its just straight up hard to get away from filia once youve blocked anythng from her.
Parasoul… I think this matchup is more of on pws level. Except for, yes… Priority. Parasouls j.hp beats most everything pw does… Well pw has some options… But they arent offensive and thats the problem. As far as i know painwheel has very few id any proactive ways to deal with other characters attacks… No priority, namely. Armoring is a guess and has a tendency to lose out anyway even when correct.
And if pw gets stuck on the other side of the screen against parasoul it can be lights out as it is simply really hard to to get out of the hp/mp fireball mixup and it does a ton of chip damage… Knowing this pw cant really kick back that much and wait for things to happen nor can she just say fuck it and play a full/midscreen game with fireballs, so shes kinda just fucked at any range… Te para i play against can uses bomber as an assist and para can cover all the places that one would normally bait bomber at… Just above her head she can use pillar or neutral jump hp, a little further and she can jump forward with hp, a little further all the way to full screen she can mp fireball bounce which has a ridiculous hit box against flight and hits pw when it seems that it shouldnt… And if pw is very high in the air para can hit her with j.mp… There is no place safe. Its all spacing mixups and pw seems woefully equipped to handle it well cause of how stupid mp fireball is against flight… The good thing about this matchup is one fuckup from parasoul to let pw in and pw can run a shit train all over her… But its like peacock filia… All the bases are covered and pw generally has to do something stupid to get in or wait for a bad mistake.
Double… Pw has afaik, no way of dealing with doubles j.hp… This creates an imbalance and the matchup is generally dictated by that one fact.
And finally pw seems forced to go an invulnerable assist cause of her lack of reversal, but she ALSO has no great way in… So double assist is basically a must against any other invulnerable assist user… Luckily they synergize well… But many assists are simply out of pws ability to use effectively as she needs to get in close to use any that arent ranged… And she has a problem with getting close.
Post patch she really looks to be worse off, not only because of hk bomber nerf… Which she definitely needed to use against uber zoners like para and peacock, but her flight got worse and she didnt get any moves to address her lack of ability to get in against tier 1 keepaway.
I really think that keepaway is what the patch will be all about.
And yes i may just suck so take all that with a huge grain of salt, but im also talking of what ive seen in pw matches not just my own so… Yeah.
-dime
I’m interested in how the scythe-flight cancels will affect painwheel’s footsies. It seems like it would have potential.
Assists completely change the way matches play out. I thought this tier list was abt ratio 1 vs ratio 1? o_O
Also, Painwheel’s flight is worse post patch? Explain please, that’s new to me.
It c
It cant just be 1v1 cause the game isnt 1v1.
Its “best team/assists that we know of” tier list… Te only character that i know is accepted as totally viable as a ratio one is fortune cause her head acts as an assist and she has safe gtfo… Basically she deosnt need assists and she tods in the current version anyways even against size 2 teams… But thats guitalexs domain.
Painwheels flight got a NEEDED nerf in that she can no longer just back and up to avoid nearly everything making some dumb shit possible against some characters with timeout strategies and such… Basically she no longer flies up or back as fast so any super jump or dash jump can catch her. Its good cause it was a legit problem, but its bad cause her flight is so bad offensively in its current form that she has to bait stuff cause her forward movement as well as attacking moves are all slow from the air or have horrid range.
I dont know what an easy solution to making her flight actually good as an offensive get in move yet not imbalanced would be… She seems like she should at least be a bit faster or have a true unfly so she can block… I dont know, all i know is that she is by far my best most practiced character and i do better with a shitty double and a 3 day peacock… Well i dont do better with peacock… But i do amazingly well for how little i know about the character so far… Compare that to the stuff pw has to put up with and… Well idk.
And before someone says that maybe i just dont know how to play a character like her… Which could totally be true… I use sent in mvc3 and ibuki in sf4… Ibuki is a low range character that has to use a vortex to make up for damage she took getting in, and sent has flight… I also use ironman in mvc3… Flight as well.
Basically if people arent running scrared of her… She loses alot of her potency, and once people see just how bad her priority in the air is… They arent running scared anymore. Problem in my book.
-dime
Tier list based on overall ratios, understood. Also, I forgot about the up fly tactic to avoid jump attacks thanks.
I always thought Painwheel’s air fierce (charge) xx fly was supposed to serve as her guard move during flight. Three hit armour, cancel whenever you want into another fly or release for w/e reason. It helps a lot vs Parasol AA attacks/shots specifically, and a lot of fast single hit air moves otherwise (Filia air fierce for example).
In the wiki it says that j.hp is 2 hits of armor… I dont actually know cause its hard to tell that the armor is even taking effect.
As far as canceling into flight… I dont see how that would work… Flight cant block… So if you armor cancel early in the middle of an opponents move it would seem to me that pw would get hit… But maybe not, its something i should at least try, but i rarely do cause its hard to tell exactly whats going anywhay when you are armoring an assist and a point character… I usually just let it go full charge and see if i make it through to the other side… Mostly i dont but it being like one of the only options, makes me go back to it again and again… But thats what i mean by bad options… When your antizoning move is getting shut down completely by zoning… It sucks.
But maybe i need to experiment more… Charge more lvl 2 mp fireballs since they are very fast and have good ground coverage. Lvl2 mp fireball may be a needed tool to deal with this stuff… Right now pw is just super obvious and doesnt really seem like a character powerful enough for that… Like oh say yun or balrog… She seems to have some sf4 blanka syndrome… A ton of good moves that are neutered cause they would be op if let go unchecked and leaves the character a shell of its true self.
-dime
Yeah, throwing in some lvl 1/2 Stingers at a distance helps to mix it up a bit. Hatred Guard hp xx fly/stinger also helps against certain lock-down sequences, like Parasol’s shot string. And from around that same Stinger distance, dash, j.strong is really good for getting Painwheel into mid-range flight. Usually, you’re far enough away so that if the opponent tries to air-to-air without jumping before you, Pain will win. Works pretty well if you can force the opponent to focus on controlling the projectile game (hitting Parasol out of her shots, taking Peacock’s item charges away) vs covering her head against air approaches.
If you have a projectile assist like Peacock’s H/car or Parasol’s shot, they also help out a lot. You gain an additional projectile to assist with the Stingers or to help cover your attempts to move in from the air.