Obviously not everyone is going to agree with the movement, or their direction or philosophy (which is pretty all encompassing atm). And I don’t expect everyone to agree with MY vision for the future. But the problems are pretty black and white. They are pretty hard to ignore.
Is war bad? Are exploitation and oppression bad? You will probably answer yes unless you’re a war monger, a dysfunctional person, or a troll.
Others are just based on fact. Did the large banks/investment firms make massive private profits while the economy crashed and people lost houses and jobs? Yes. Are both presidential candidates corporately funded by said banks? Yes. Does the US profit from war and exploitation (economically speaking)? Yes (it can be argued no, because they benefit the private interests of certain individuals more than others). I guess we all do in a sense. So what happens is that the money of the corporations becomes worth more than the vote of the people.
Other social issues based on fact. There’s 1 billion people starving in the world. The price of education and healthcare is ridiculous. The top 10% owns 90% of the total wealth of the US.
And personally I have had discussions with lots of people from all different walks of life, with all kinds of different ideologies and goals. There’s been Tea Party members at my local movement, and while sometimes it’s difficult for some people to agree with them, we still share many similar goals. You can’t deny any one from the 99% or else it will no longer really be the 99%.
I try and deal mostly with reason, even if it might not seem that way. Sometimes it feels like others aren’t using reason.
That advocate is why I could never stand poli sci classes. That is the most insane babble I have ever heard. I am not even sure what he trying to say. It sounds like he is saying we should all just share everything and the world would be better, which is why those philosophy classes drove me nuts . It was always some guys vision of an imaginary world, with no solution of how to get there, ignoring how the real world works
If you’re interested in how we would transition towards a system like that, there’s articles and info if you look for it.
It is difficult to understand a RBE from the context of our own time. But think about how difficult it would have been to explain capitalism and representative democracy, if we were still ruled by a monarch hundreds of years ago.
Capitalism was first thought up by John Locke, and Adam Smith, and has been the system we have used for a long while. And we are now starting to see the problems with the system, that were clearly defined in the very texts that proposed the idea. There’s two easily identifiable problems; One being that money outlasts the product or services that it was exchanged for. Therefore there will always be more money than goods and services (which might sound good, but it isn’t since it depreciates it). The second problem is that money is supposed to be traded or exchanged to compensate for labor. But when someone has enough money to begin to buy labor, it no longer does that. People are able to use their money to obtain more money, without producing any valuable goods or services (similar to speculation that the banks/investment firms do that drive up the economy, that cause it to crash).
Often times capitalism has negative effects. Like for example private jails that make profits from sending people to there. There’s been private juvenile facilities, and now they have private complexes that hold illegal immigrants, so that they can profit from them. It’s a free market, anything goes.
Spoiler
[media=youtube]vuGE1VxVsYo[/media]
Now if you don’t want illegal immigration, why would you try and make profits from it? Hmm.
The problem isn’t the facts, it’s interpretation of facts. Your tea party comment is actually a good illustration of this. Two movements that seem completely at odds with each other despite sharing a large number of the same grievances.The major difference being that Occupy blames the corporations and the Tea Party blames the government, which oddly enough if you listen hard enough end up pretty much being the same entities in the end from either angle (whether it be corporations buying out government officials or government officials handpicking which corporate interests get special treatment and which don’t)
Your opponents on the right will claim that the wealth disparity is government’s fault, that they’ve put themselves in a position to pick who does well and suppress the masses at large, making it intentionally difficult for people in low income environments to move up as a way of securing power and votes for future elections (creating a crisis, then acting as the only form of rescue, or so they want you to believe ), and that as a whole, a system that encourages nothing more than mediocrity is being created, a system where success is reviled. They’ll claim that education and healthcare prices are the fault of third party negotiator’s that aren’t interested in making favorable deals ( whether that be heatlhcare or college prices being handled by insurance or government agencies that aren’t cost conscientious, or a similar vein regarding public union negotiations ). The Tea Party at large would agree that banks should have never received bailout money, though they differ in thinking that capitalism is a good system and that the problem is that the system isn’t being allowed to function ( and that in a proper system said banks would have been left to either fix themselves or die. )
random thought: This just struck me as a bit amusing, but if you took occupy wall street’s message and replaced “the 1%” with “Justin Wong” and “more government programs and taxes/regulation” with “comeback mechanics and easier combos” we’d be calling them all scrubs.
I am going to look up that and return, because even if capitalism has problems with labor I don’t see RBE even realistically addressing labor issues and that’s my problem with it.
We were ruled by a monarch hundreds of years ago, and capitalism has always existed. Democracy existed thousands of years ago as well, in a variety of cultures.
Also, people will do what they have to do for money. It is a persons free choice and will to offer or procure it. So if money is the problem, then what is the solution?
If somebody wants seal fur from Alaska and all they have on their island is coconuts, what do they do? The world has always been a resource based economy, as it is now. Money just makes the exchange of said resources easier. How do we make the exchange of resources easier than it is now?
And I am sorry, where does the income in the prison video come from, and how is that a fault of capitalism when opportunity in the said capitalist country is the cause?
@Alidfe, Nice analogy. But the “more government programs and taxes/regulation” isn’t the message of the Occupy movement. It is a solution that some supporters would want though, but everybody has their own idea.
I agree with what you said especially about the government and the corporations being closely related. And everything else you said is pretty much right.
And yet even though we all have our differences, when it comes down to it we all believe the same thing. That’s why I think it’s so good that the movement doesn’t have a set of goals yet. It is broad, and everyone can speak their own piece, and still agree that there is problems that need to be fixed. That’s what can allow it to be the “99%” like they say. And every group can plug into it, and access a great number of informed people if the cause is good. Like the Tarsands Action right now. Or local things that can make a difference in the community, and one day eventually even larger things to solve the problems.
But step one is to get people to acknowledge the problems. I spoke to a lot of people on my campus yesterday (passing out flyers and having discussions), and I found that a lot of people don’t know what is going on around them. SO if it accomplishes nothing else, at least it will help raise awareness and help educate and inform people more.
They basically provide the service of a jail, but it is private so they are hired (not sure by who? State or county?). So basically all they need to do is persuade ($$$) a judge to be a little more harsh with their decisions to give the private jails a little more business. Oh and when they’re up for parole and get sent back to the judge, he just says that they need a little more rehabilitation. It’s a free market baby.
Honestly I don’t have the best understanding either. If you want more info look it up. They have put lots of kids in juvenile facilities (in Pennsylvania) in order to create profits. I don’t know how many other places they have done it.
They also do this to immigrants also, although I’m assuming you might not care if they are illegally jailed or not… They’re kept away from their families and treated like livestock basically, as if owned by the private jails.
A Resource Based Economy is based on science. And science solves problems. That is literally what it is meant to do, that is the sole purpose of the invention and advancement of science (understanding the universe, getting from point A to point B, communicating with people around the world, cures for cancer, advancements in health). And they won’t just be any solutions. They will be the most efficient, and the least harmful to the environment.
Labor as we know it will be completely reinvented, and you will see less manual or repetitive jobs, and more jobs that require education. Everybody will have access to education, so it will not be a matter of having enough money, or getting loans. It will be readily available to everyone, as it should be.
Because the more intelligent that individuals are, the more they can contribute to society. Therefore making life better for you and me. (Even a conservative can agree on this. I know the way they hate the “leeches” on welfare).
You missed my point about democracy and capitalism. Yes there was democracy in Greece a long time ago, but our form of democracy would be very difficult to explain to someone who is ruled by a monarch. How are you going to explain all of the intricacies of the voting system, terms in office, bi cameral legislature (based on population size and equal representation), the checks and balances. They might get the general concept, but they’d be like “no no no. It won’t work, us peasants are too unintelligent and we aren’t ordained by God. We need the King to lead us.” (similar to how people today like to try and maintain the status quo of the system. Example: most people in this thread).
Or try telling someone back then that a giant metal monster would replace horses as means of transportation, and for fuel we will feed it dinosaur juice. They’d laugh at you, call you crazy, and then you’d get stoned to death. And yet nowadays we drive cars that rely mostly on gasoline, which comes from fossil fuels.
Also free market capitalism wasn’t introduced until 1776, and John Locke was the first person to introduce the idea of private property.
If this were a barter system they would trade. If this were a free market system they would both have a currency, or the same currency and decide the value of each of the products (taking into account supply and demand) and exchange for both evenly at an agreed upon price, while the people in charge of production of coconuts and seal furs will make most of the profit.
If it were a Resource Based Economy they would say “instead of killing seals, let’s develop an alternative that keeps people insulated better, is easy to wear, lasts longer and then distribute it to whoever wants it”. If there was a need for improved clothing it would be met, it would be made efficiently with as little harm to the environment as possible. And as far as food goes, they would be able to grow food even if their island didn’t have arable land using hydroponics. It takes up less space, and can grow food year round (which results in more food).
How do you make a “resource based economy”? Is this Fresco’s robot version, where robots do everything necessary and we just lounge around and pursue our dreams?
Who is responsible for auto-mating everything from Robotic Doctors, Lawyers, Scientists, Cops and Janitors? The technology is like 500 years away at least.
It isn’t profitable, which means as the world functions now, no company has an incentive to begin creating a RBE.
Plus it has to be a world-wide phenomena, you can’t simply convert a small country into RBE while the rest of the world is monetarist/capitalistic. You won’t have access to all the goods and services your population needs.
So this means not only do you need extremely advanced technology but you also need a cultural revolution in which everyone agrees to work-together, put aside political and racial differences, and auto-mate the world simply for posterity without worrying about a profit incentive in the present…good luck with that.
John Locke did not, in fact, come up with the idea of private property, as it is understood today.
The concept of John Locke’s thought, was another matter entirely.
Private property, as envisioned by Locke, was literally “that which is proper to someone” i.e. that which said person makes use of, or makes better through his or her own work. Ownership, as such, was subject to some thing being used purposefully, in manner befitting it.
This is why there are laws on the books dating back to the beginning of the U.S. which allow a person who takes up that which “belongs” to another, that said other person is not making proper use of, and improves upon it/makes use of it, by rights then owns said other person’s property e.g. a summer house that lay empty for 10 months out of the year being moved into by a homeless person who then makes it into home for himself, thereby putting it to proper use.
This bullshit idea of “It’s all mine because I flung money about, you cannot have my unneeded, unused excess” is antithetical to Lockean Ideals.
Not commenting on the situation in the video, but a veteran really isn’t entitled to anything more than a thank you and some small respect in my opinion. They aren’t above the law, nor is anyone else.
Edit: This is kind of late (This thread moves fast). I don’t know if we can really have something like a resource based economy. People are too in it for themselves for it to work in my opinion.
This is nonviable and will be the reason it fizzles, although if a leader can keep organization and motivation high it will last longer otherwise the same syndrome that happens with war will occur, public opinion will swing and it will stop.
Thats all well and good but to the untrained eye it appears to be a leaderless mob and this will scare citizens rather than strengthen/educate them and in turn will incite them to grow anscious(sp?). Or worse get them to become angry because these “freeloaders/hippies” are inconviencing their lives.
Thats fine but when you figure how many people are not involved or are caring about those ideals you have to figure they are waiting for a show (riot) or something else my money is the rest of the world is waiting for entertainment.
It is definiately getting attention for good or bad so No problem there.
I see angry people linked in thier anger whether it is justified or not remains to be seen, Im waiting to see how the governemtn reacts that will be interesting. If it’s the Democratic convention of 72 now that will be interesting, Democracy in action being stamped out by the people loving Democrats that will be neat. If nothing else it will be interesting to see the way humanity interacts with itself again.
WTF, nigga didn’t break any laws, he was doing what every american should be entitled to. He was protesting and some douchebag cop shot him in the head.
There is no specific demands from the people and its vague for those who don’t have the time to go down and see what’s up. The very fact that one would have to go down there just to understand what they want, or at best get a general understanding of what the different groups want in the movement isn’t good for the movement long term. There needs to be some sort of voice that communicates with “normal” people
If it continues to stay formatted the way it is, then becomes easy too pick apart by the opposition. Since there isn’t no “charter”, or list of demands the general consensus agrees with, or clear motif, politicians can shut these movements down easily with the pretense of public safety or whatever shit they feel like regurgitating.
I’m not trying to crap on the movement, but there is going to be a point where there needs to be some sort of leadership. Simply because politicians force you to play by their rules. the more the people simply gather into large clusters the more paranoid these politicians are going to get, and the possibility of brutal encounters goes up.
im very disappointing in the progressive left. i just found out that the most backward state in the United States, Texas, has a program where if your parents make less than 65000 the state pays for your school provided you stay on track and don’t get caught doing stupid shit. Wher the fuck is that program in Cali? Oh that’s right its going to fucking dumb bitches who fuck and spend their WIC money on drugs, or outrageous public pensions that public employees did not earn.
You sound like the queen of England, bitching about all the poor people lining the streets, after the lords kicked the peasants off of their ancestrally worked and lived on lands, in favor of sheep and Mercantilism lining the lords’ lordly pockets.
Also, sometimes wrong is wrong, no matter how you slice it.
2 + 2 != 9, no matter how you fuck the books.
Eventually, it comes crashing down.
Unfortunately, the crooks who raped and pillaged the U.S. & world economies got bailed out by their paid shills in the government.
That extra 5er that the bankers “netted”?
Straight out of our pockets, and, perhaps even worse, straight out of circulation, as the obscenely uber wealthy have not, and shall not willing reinvest it into a failing economy. An economy which they themselves ruined.
Nice response about Locke. I haven’t actually read it myself (I got a long list of books to read atm), but eventually I’ll get around to studying it.
About the first part. It is a law that is going against the first ammendment of the constitution. Honestly I know that breaking the law is a scary thing, but look at the law that the people are breaking. It’s a law that is there to make it difficult for people to use their freedom of speech, and give the leaders and officials of the city control of a movement that is created by and for the people. Obviously if the city had it their way, they would severely limit the people’s right to protest and peacefully assemble, as you can see by the incredible police presence.
So he broke the law by standing in place, holding a sign. A man who had served the country, should at least be able to exercise his constitutional rights. Any citizen should. The people who break the law do so knowingly, it’s controversial and obviously it’s the only way to get attention to the problems that are facing our generation.
What is a law anyways? It’s basically just an “opinion with a gun”. I mean if it was your opinion that protestors should have limits on when and where they can demonstrate their constitutional rights, would you want them jailed if they didn’t comply? Would you want them put in jail under the force of a gun? Because if they resist what happens? The cops will use force and use their weapons if they have to to enforce the law. Now there’s a question. To what extent should you follow a law?
In regards to the RBE, in theory it is a better system in many ways. It would be hard to accomplish though, but step one is to get people to realize that there are alternatives. And if the system does not serve us (the people of the nation and of the world), maybe we should not serve the system.
There’s info on people’s ideas of how to transition into a RBE that you could google and find out.
Like you tell me all the time. That is your point of view
There is no leader. We are the leaders. We decide our level of involvement. And as long as there are “people of good conscience” then it will continue.
“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is the people of good conscience to remain silent” -Andrew Jackson
A lot of people are just waiting. You’re right. We use our escapism to keep ourselves from realizing the true state of our situation. When worse comes to worse, if we do not succeed in changing the direction in which we are headed, the people won’t be able to wait any longer if they want to survive.
Do you think people are justified in their anger towards the current global situation, with all of the knowledge that you have shown me that you possess? You don’t have to tell me on here, but I hope you at least have an opinion.
Dude just say it. “I’m lazy and I want them to come to me”. lol jk
Since when are you normal, pedo?
There are people at each movement dedicated to spreading awareness. It’s not just a mob of angry people. It’s actually very organized, with voluntary groups that serve different functions. Community outreach, organizers, the arts, public relations, and some others I forgot. That’s just at my area’s smaller movement. In the bigger cities there is a LOT of stuff going on. Thanks to the dedication of a few individuals, people who support it just need to know when and where to go, and what actions they can take to help. And if they don’t like it they have the ability to go speak to the group and voice their concerns or opinions. Isn’t that just beautiful?
At my local movement, we’re still starting out, and there’s a lot of things that are coming up that are going to make it much bigger. There’s pretty big events planned, and we have been spreading out flyers, canvassing and stuff. At my college campus there’s going to be their first GA on campus for supporters too, which I’m pretty excited for.
Let them try then. Despite all of the negativity from the media and the incredible police presence, the movement has still grown and continues to grow. Every time there is a conflict, it gets attention (sad but true).
Uh, it depends on what we want to do. If we decide to try to come to an agreement then sure, but if we don’t want to we don’t have to. How are they going to force us to play by their rules? Police force?
Good let them be paranoid. Let them realize that for the first time in a long time, a large portion of the public is beginning to be concerned with how they are being governed. They got to get their shit straight or else a large portion of the people (a very loud and noisy bunch) will do everything in their power to make it known and not let them get away with it.
