See any attempt of tweaking a character to that extent (HAL doesn’t know the intricaties of Shine like the players do) would basically rape him. (See: Pikachu, Ness, and Kirby) They would simply go the other extreme and nerf the heck outta him.
The most the could ever do without eliminating Shine Cancelling would be to make Reflector have like 10-20 startup frames (trust me that’s still very fast) instead of the 1 frame crapola it has now.
Nerfing him to the point of uselessness is a little too pessimistic. They’ve made that mistake already and I really don’t think they would be so oblivious as to do it again. If the developers of this game are avid fans of Melee and they’ve paid a lot of attention to it all-around, then that won’t happen but we’ll just have to see until actual in-game footage is released. 10-20 startup frames doesn’t sound too bad. It shouldn’t be any faster than a jab which also means that it shouldn’t get beat out by jabs but on the flip side it shouldn’t beat out jabs.
I’m being more realistic than anything, this has basically been done in nearly every fighting game (Akuma is a primary example) and HAL has no idea on they way the competitive metagame works, only the mechanics of their gaming engine. It’s not their fault though, since we’re the ones that squeeze out every unseen advantage.
Sure they knew about wavedashing and left it in the game, but do you think they knew that it would be such an essential part of the gameplay? Do you think they expected 0-70% throw juggles, desynching, or shine spiking? No. They just knew the effects, we made the uses.
As a person who has played both generations competitively I have taken careful notice on how they tweaked the engine and attempted to balance certain characters. On the upper side: Pikachu, Kirby, Ness On the lesser: Link, Samus, Jigglypuff
Unless the developers are going to MLG or asking Ken/Azen/Captain Jack for beta test advice I’m extremely skeptical that any attempts at balance other than a engine rehaul will prevent a character from being weakened.
In all likelihood, they’re going to put out some patches when all the crazy glitches are found out and used regularly.
Shine definitely needs to be nerfed, but 10-20 frame startup is way too long. Most jabs have about a 4-frame startup time, and tilts about 7-12 frames. What they need to do is reduce the stun time, and change the fact that knockback is related to an individual character’s traction. Make it like Yoshi’s d-tilt, where it has fixed knockback–that way, you can’t infinite some characters (like Link/Peach), and you can’t shine-spike rape others (Luigi, ICs).
I’m still confused as to why they don’t have beta-tests and ask top-tier players for input. They did that for GGXX: AC, so there’s no reason for them not to do it for Smash. I guess the developers don’t see Smash as a valid, competitive fighter?
This whole thread makes me horny
Don’t Beta Tests like that usually happen for arcade games and not for console releases?
Even so Japanese gaming companies tend to use lots of Beta Testers for just about everything. May or may not be Top players, we don’t know all the time since there’s always a fair amount of secrecy involved.
They don’t need to beta test. The players will do it for them.
The reason companies do beta-tests is because it’s expensive and a big pain in the ass to update all the arcade cabs once they’ve been distributed.
But if they patch SSBB, they can just do it via Wii Connect 24.
This means the game will be constantly evolving. If all the top ranked online players are using Fox, won’t they all be shocked when they wake up one morning to find all their cheap tactics have been nerfed! Muhahahahahaha!
…seriously.
Patches will make beta testing unnecessary. And the players won’t have to wait a couple of years just for the game to be updated.
Patches should not replace beta testing, merely they should compliment it.
A lot of companies make this mistake.
Beta testing is there to hammer out major problems, patches fix imbalances and minor issues which cannot be well tested with a team of 40 people playing the game in and out.
I would agree with this, but in order to patch something, the patch files need to be stored on a hard drive, and if games keep getting patched, then the internal 512MB is gonna get filled real fast. If Nintendo makes firmware that allows patches to be saved on external hard drives, then by-jove, they can beta test all they want.
Balance/bug fixes very often require no multimedia, so they don’t take up a lot of space. A few megs at worst. It’s all variable/programming changes (hitbox alteration for example, requires only changing a few kilobytes of data).
Doesn’t the Wii come with 512 MB of flash memory? At probably a meg or two, patches will still be smaller than say, the SNES and N64 roms you save for the VC. Plus, IIRC, you can expand your Wii’s memory for stuff like that with SD cards.
Besides. Most games won’t need patching. Only competative games like fighters, shooters, and racers should need to be patched unless there’s a major glitch in need of fixing.
…seriously.
On this note, does anyone know if the wii has USB ports? And if so will it accept things like usb drives?
I mean it’d be great but I can see how people would just hack that shit to play roms without buying them on virtual console.
Yes, it has a USB port, which in theory, could be used to store data on external hard drives in addition to SD cards.
EDIT: and the Wii has already been hacked to play SNES roms loaded off an SD card.
…seriously.
Is there a confirmation by Nintendo stating that they will use patches? Just because they have the capabilities that doesn’t mean they will use it.
N64 was capable of high quality FMVs and video but they didn’t start having them until '99 when no one cared. :lame:
Well, since Nintendo has been known to fix glitches as they go (for example, there are a bunch of different releases of SSBM. Every time they found a bug, they’d fix it for the next round of games they manufactured.) I don’t see why they wouldn’t apply that to patches, to ensure everybody gets the updated versions, since doing it that way would be free.
Besides, Nintendo’s used patches in the past, for example the Berry Glitch fix for Pokemon Ruby/Emerald that you could download from Pokemon Coloseum.
…seriously.
You do have a strong point…
…seriously.
^ Yes, even moreso than it already is. But who would make the cut?
Yeah it would. But even though Ryu and Chun-Li are my favorite video game characters if only one Capcom character made the cut I’d rather it be the original Mega Man since he has more of a strong NES history while SF kind of has always been everywhere. MM Started out on the NES while SF1 was on the Turbo Grafx first, and before that arcades. And even SF2 wasn’t on the Super Nes too long before it appeared on the Sega Genesis.
Who would make the cut for SF? Well, Sakurai said the characters have had to appear on a Nintendo console before so that eliminates all of the original characters from the SF3 series except for Yun who is in CVS2 and SFA3 for the GBA. Some people from SF1 are also eliminated except for the few who have graduated to SFA and the SF2 series - Ryu, Ken, Sagat, Gen, Adon, Birdie, Eagle(GBA SFA3, CVS2) Mike - Well for Mike, assuming he and Mike Bison AKA Balrog are the same person, still not really clear on that one… but the real deal Mike Tyson is on Super Punch Out anyway, that won’t happen because Mike Tyson would get paid big bucks and that just can’t happen anymore because that will cause a rift in the space time continuim. 
Still by the character that represents the series it would be Ryu who would make it in. If they went by popularity, Chun-Li beats the crap out of everyone on fan poll after fan poll. Ryu beats Ken on Japanese polls, Ken beats Ryu on US polls most of the time - I don’t think I have to even say it outloud that Ken’s more popular than Ryu in the US, so if they REALLY wanted to cater to us Ken would be in. Not likely for that to happen but I suppose it would be kind of funny for Ken to one-up Ryu that way. :lol:
Heh I would love to have a match up between Samus Aran and Chun-Li, more so than any of Ryu’s possible Nintendo crossover matches for top video game female dominance. That’s possibly more interesting to me than any of MM’s possible match ups, but still think MM deserves to be in there more. 
Um, and yeah - if we could ever get Chun-Li, Samus Aran and Lara Croft in some type of 3-way… yes I’m still talking about video games… I think… 