Super Saikyo Dan Match-up Thread

[Krackatoa]

It’s possible to know when Haoh Gadouken will connect and when it won’t by feel alone. You have to be very familiar with the timing window, though. Aim for as early as possible and option-select with EX Koryuken.

:qcf::qcf::lk::mk::hk:,:df::d::df::mp::hp:

Input that, and timed for the extra meaty LK.Danku normally required for LK.Danku > Haoh, Haoh won’t register if you’re not meaty enough. You will get the EX Koryuken juggle, though. It’s easier to time if you watch the opponent’s juggle animation as he’s popped up.

This way, it’s Win-Win, but you’ve got to have pretty precise timing lest you blow your Ultra prematurely. A frame too late with the Haoh and it may register when you really didn’t want it to, and you need to watch for Negative Edge, I think. Use KKK and hold it while you input EX Koryuken.

The window for EX Koryuken is pretty gaping, so I think this is practical. (I’ve pretty much dropped Haoh for Buraiken at this point due to AE’s nerfitude…)

[Ixion_90]

Hmm, good stuff, but feels a bit… I don’t know, like an emergency-action for insufficient execution? I’d rather practice a lot at the timing and to notice when it’s not meaty enough. I’d buffer the ultra motion, and depending on the meaty measures, I’ll input either PP or KKK… Or is that bad?

Yes, the negative edge is a big problem, it happened to me a lot while I examined the combo. There’s nothing in the input shortcuts system I hate as much as the negative edge.

[Krackatoa]

Hmm, good stuff, but feels a bit… I don’t know, like an emergency-action for insufficient execution? I’d rather practice a lot at the timing and to notice when it’s not meaty enough. I’d buffer the ultra motion, and depending on the meaty measures, I’ll input either PP or KKK… Or is that bad?

Yes, the negative edge is a big problem, it happened to me a lot while I examined the combo. There’s nothing in the input shortcuts system I hate as much as the negative edge.

You usually want to tag the EX Koryuken anyways. With the sheer multitude of different hitboxes in the game, this helps supplement against certain characters who have variable hitboxes based on their Reel Backwards and Reel Forwards animations.

Anyways, you still need to properly time stuff for this. Using this way, though, you only have to worry about hitting a single timing window and it should work every time, but do whatever you like. Your way gets the same end result.

And dood, input shortcuts are great. Tighten up your execution and they’re nothing but a boon.

[PKSkyler]

The window for EX Koryuken is pretty gaping, so I think this is practical. (I’ve pretty much dropped Haoh for Buraiken at this point due to AE’s nerfitude…)

!!!
I knew U1 was the better Ultra in the end, even though I used to pick U2 exclusively and argue against it.
Haoh needs to not push Dan so far back and keep its invincibility to be viable. As it is now, its only for people who want to zone/footsie/play Dan like Ryu.

IMO, they should have let you FADC into U1 like the KoF Kyokugen-Ryuu-Ougi Supers where when they propel foward and if they touch you with the first hit it auto combos. (Mr.Karate and Ryo have it)

And U2 should have been like Otoko Michi or another command grab type thing.

You usually want to tag the EX Koryuken anyways. With the sheer multitude of different hitboxes in the game, this helps supplement against certain characters who have variable hitboxes based on their Reel Backwards and Reel Forwards animations.

And dood, input shortcuts are great. Tighten up your execution and they’re nothing but a boon.

I agree, Theres nothing bad about the extra damage from EX krk after a knee. I always go for it, the stance it leaves your opponent in is pretty neutral too, you can sneak in a throw or a normal as soon as you both recover. Or block. Works great too I’ve found, lmao.

Honestly, I input better in mvc3. In this game I get Supers when I dont want them A LOT and I get negative edge a decent amount. The first part is so bad that I ussually FADC or throw out an Ex Dankuu as soon as I get full super so I dont get a random one.

[Krackatoa]

It’s cause you don’t have super awesome robot hands like I do… or a Hit-box… It’s physically impossible to overshoot a motion when you’ve broken the moves down to keystrokes.

[Ixion_90]

!!!
I knew u1 was the better ultra in the end, even though i used to pick u2 exclusively and argue against it.
Haoh needs to not push dan so far back and keep its invincibility to be viable. As it is now, its only for people who want to zone/footsie/play dan like ryu.

U1 has always been obviously better than U2 i.m.o., it catches a lot of stuff, does more damage, and doesn’t throw you away to the edge of the screen like U2 does… The disadvantages are that it can’t combo, like you said, and it doesn’t break armour. Still, it’s better, since the occasions where U2 actually is genuinely useful are quite few… I mostly only combo into it when it kills the opponent, or I use it as a reaction punish for some stuff, like some of Balrogs rushes and his turn punch. The good thing is that it beats his armour rushes, which U1 doesn’t do if you don’t time it really late and perfectly… What was the main nerfs of U2? I can’t get why they would nerf that…

i agree, theres nothing bad about the extra damage from ex krk after a knee. I always go for it, the stance it leaves your opponent in is pretty neutral too, you can sneak in a throw or a normal as soon as you both recover. Or block. Works great too i’ve found, lmao.

Hmm, extra damage is good, but not always worth it i.m.o… Yes, the situation you get into afterwards is neutral but I think there’s more mixup potential when it’s not done since you get more time to move around, and I don’t think the damage it does is that impressive… Don’t get me wrong, I use it almost every time but sometimes it doesn’t feel like it’s going to be worth it, like when only having one meter for instance…

The first part is so bad that i ussually fadc or throw out an ex dankuu as soon as i get full super so i dont get a random one.

I admit I occasionally do that too, and it feels really weird every time… I mostly regret it, but then again, it’s EXTREMELY easy to get out a super even though you’re not doing the “proper” motion for it… I hate it.

By the way, is the input for ultras the same as supers? I mean, do the input shortcut system apply equally to them? Because sometimes when I really think I do the right motion for the ultra, it doesn’t come out, which is really strange since the super is so f***ing easy to get out.

And dood, input shortcuts are great. Tighten up your execution and they’re nothing but a boon.

Hmm, I certainly do get your point, but I don’t think I’ll ever be in favour of the input shortcut system… I know what the advantages are, but I feel that even though I get the chance to learn to do some stuff really smoothly it doesn’t feel right to me. The reason to this is that there are a lot of other games where this system isn’t used and I don’t like practicing execution stuff in SSFIV that will totally backfire in other fighting games, MvC3, SST2 HDR, or SF A3 for instance… In someway I also think the system is “morally” wrong; it let’s you do stuff that you actually shouldn’t be able to do that way. Also, I think some of the things that happens because of the input shortcut system is totally retarded, like making your character dash at the opposite direction of what you pressed when you’ve input a dash at the same time as the opponent crosses over you. Or when I sometimes in some weird way get out a Gadouken instead of a Kouryuuken while being crossed over… Maybe it’s my execution, but I think it’s ridiculous that that sort of thing can happen when it’s so obvious you’re not doing the motion for that attack.

[Krackatoa]

Hmm, I certainly do get your point, but I don’t think I’ll ever be in favour of the input shortcut system… I know what the advantages are, but I feel that even though I get the chance to learn to do some stuff really smoothly it doesn’t feel right to me. The reason to this is that there are a lot of other games where this system isn’t used and I don’t like practicing execution stuff in SSFIV that will totally backfire in other fighting games, MvC3, SST2 HDR, or SF A3 for instance… In someway I also think the system is “morally” wrong; it let’s you do stuff that you actually shouldn’t be able to do that way. Also, I think some of the things that happens because of the input shortcut system is totally retarded, like making your character dash at the opposite direction of what you pressed when you’ve input a dash at the same time as the opponent crosses over you. Or when I sometimes in some weird way get out a Gadouken instead of a Kouryuuken while being crossed over… Maybe it’s my execution, but I think it’s ridiculous that that sort of thing can happen when it’s so obvious you’re not doing the motion for that attack.

If you completely understood the input system, the auto-correct system, and the buffer windows for moves, you wouldn’t have an issue. I play in all manner of games, some with input shortcuts and some without. After a few thousand hours with my chosen form of input, it doesn’t matter what kind of motion or what kind of timing is required, I can work it into muscle memory in an afternoon or two.

Gadouken won’t come out instead of Koryuken unless you flubbed your 623, it doesn’t matter how much it auto-corrects. In most other games, you wouldn’t get either move, or the exact same thing would happen. Time 32123 correctly instead of trying to use 623 and this will never be a problem.

Read up on the intricacies of the system and learn to use them to your advantage. You’re playing SSFIV, not some other fighting game. Crouching DP, big Auto-Correct windows and a multitude of time-saving shortcuts are all tools used by high-level players. None of that “morals” shit. I’m sorry, but that’s scrub talk. In SSFIV, Ryu can’t walk-forward Hadouken, Fei can’t walk-forward Shienkyaku, Balrog can Dash-Forward Ultra I and Zangief can 720 before prejump frames end. That’s the game you’re playing. Learn it or go play something else.

[Sugami]

the occasions where U2 actually is genuinely useful are quite few…

Are you fucking kidding me?

1. KRK FADC > Haoh
2. AA KRK > Haoh

If you think those opportunities don’t come along often then there’s something wrong with you.

Fuck.

[Ixion_90]

Well then… I certainly have to eat that up, don’t I. I’m sorry.

Krakatoa, it seems like the impression I’ve given you, and possibly to others too, was not successful at all… it saddens me, I hope you forgive me for my “scrubby” statements. In all honesty I am a good player, but my weakness is my lack of knowledge of the game system. I read very little, almost everything I learn comes from playing the game… the input I do for the KRK when being crossed over is (if I’m on the left) right, down, down-right, punch; the usual one that is, but I press punch right after the cross over. That’s how I do it.

Sugami, do you really think Haoh Gadouken is always good after a KRK -> FADC? I think a H Dankuukyaku is frequently better because of the pressure thing. The AA KRK U2 is useful though.

Sorry again, I really don’t want you to think I’m some nutjob… Peace?

[D-bus]

I wouldn’t worry about it Ixion. For the most part were pretty friendly around here compared to the other sub forums. I can see the reasons why people wouldn’t like U2 though, I personally still think its match up dependent. (Still don’t know which ultra to pick against Gief, fuck Gief)

It’s cause you don’t have super awesome robot hands like I do

All i can think about is the musical episode of Futurama with the Robot Devil every time i read that. Goddamnit

[Ixion_90]

If I may… U2 against Zangief doesn’t sound that good to me, mostly because of its damage and Zangiefs high health (although I use it, but that’s because I always only use U2 no matter what). What can you do with it? You can punish jump ins and Lariats and you can combo into it. With U1 you can also punish jump ins and Lariats, but with a larger margin, and you can also punish cross up jumps that aren’t timed very well. And it hurts more.

[Krackatoa]

I’m sorry for doing an acrobatic fucking pirouette off the handle there. Not many people understand the input system and all it’s wiles, and I know how much it sucks to not understand why something works.

Learn to use shortcuts when necessary. It’s practically required when you have crossups involved.

There are 27 different possible inputs for DP in the SSFIV engine.

313 316 319 323 326 329 333 336 339
613 616 619 623 626 629 633 636 639
913 916 919 923 926 929 933 936 939

Using 623, done properly, breaks when the opponent crosses up part way through the motion. I’ll use | to denote when they pass over your head.

|623: becomes 421, will result in no DP.
6|23: becomes 621, will result in no DP.
62|3: becomes 621, will result in no DP.
623|: stays as 623, and will auto-correct properly.

Let’s look at using 3212321.

|3212321: becomes 1232123, will result in DP. In these instances, you’re better off doing reverse DP to start.
3|212321: becomes 3232123, will result in DP.
32|12321: becomes 3232123, will result in DP.
321|2321: becomes 3212123, will result in DP. Probably one of the two instances with the largest gap if you’re doing the whole motion. You’ll have to be fast.
3212|321: becomes 3212123, will result in DP. As above, the same input is generated.
32123|21: becomes 3212323, will result in DP.
321232|1: becomes 3212323, will result in DP.
3212321|: becomes 3212321, will result in DP.

You can usually tell whether or not you need the full-blown 3212321 when auto-correcting. A crisp 323/121 can work just as well if they’re too deep.

Hopefully that helps a bit. Shortcuts are your friend. If this was 3rd Strike, I’m pretty sure it has auto-correct as well, just a smaller input buffer, which means auto-correct DPs are harder to do (and only work on 623).

[D-bus]

If I may… U2 against Zangief doesn’t sound that good to me, mostly because of its damage and Zangiefs high health (although I use it, but that’s because I always only use U2 no matter what). What can you do with it? You can punish jump ins and Lariats and you can combo into it. With U1 you can also punish jump ins and Lariats, but with a larger margin, and you can also punish cross up jumps that aren’t timed very well. And it hurts more.

I don’t have a reliable time landing AA Koryus into U2 against Gief so i kinda just use U1 to get out of body splash mixups. Pretty sure they can catch up with EX Green Hand into LP SPD, but noone ever does

[Krackatoa]

Also, U2 is going to be pretty garbage in AE. Only 7 frames of invulnerability and I think it can be stuffed in startup.

[Ixion_90]

Uhm… remember when I said my weakness is my lack of knowledge? Well here it shows, I don’t understand any of this number stuff. I can only guess that 1 means left and 5 means right or something like that. I’m actually not sure what auto-correcting means exactly either. I tried finding it in the lexicon on eventhubs but it wasn’t there. I can see you put time in this post, so I’m sorry I can’t understand much of it, I can only guess. You’re welcome to expound.

D-bus; just to clarify, when I said U2 can be used to punish jump ins I didn’t mean with an AA KRK first (even if that’s one way), but rather just doing it on reaction at the top of his jump… The advantage of this is that you can do it a bit farther away from him since you need no KRK, and it’s not that hard to bait Zangief to jump by just dashing back and forth making him think he’s safe (and it’s really funny!). But then again, U1 works like this too and it does more damage… and the margin for the timing is larger…

[Krackatoa]

D-bus; just to clarify, when I said U2 can be used to punish jump ins I didn’t mean with an AA KRK first (even if that’s one way), but rather just doing it on reaction at the top of his jump… The advantage of this is that you can do it a bit farther away from him since you need no KRK, and it’s not that hard to bait Zangief to jump by just dashing back and forth making him think he’s safe (and it’s really funny!). But then again, U1 works like this too and it does more damage… and the margin for the timing is larger…

U2 is okay for punishing jumps since it does reach and is totally invincible, but it starts up in 15 frames, as opposed to U1, which starts up in like 10. That’s a big difference when you’re trying to react to faster jumps.

U2 is great due to the sheer amount of damage you can get off of HP.Koryuken FADC, which is one of Dan’s best offensive and defensive options, which means it still has uses in matchups where you’re going to be doing KRK FADC a lot, like the Gief matchup. Also, it eats the Ibuki Kunai-Vortex practically for free.

I still prefer U1 for most matchups.

Uhm… remember when I said my weakness is my lack of knowledge? Well here it shows, I don’t understand any of this number stuff. I can only guess that 1 means left and 5 means right or something like that. I’m actually not sure what auto-correcting means exactly either. I tried finding it in the lexicon on eventhubs but it wasn’t there. I can see you put time in this post, so I’m sorry I can’t understand much of it, I can only guess. You’re welcome to expound.

Sorry, I was using numpad notation

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

:ub::u::uf:
.N.:f:
:db::d::df:

Auto-correct is exactly what it sounds like. If you input 623 (:dp:) just before the opponent passes over your head, and you hit :p: as he passes over to the other side, you’ll Koryuken in the opposite direction.

Auto-correcting allows you to do things like punish Akuma’s teleport easily as he passes by you with Ultra. Input a complete :qcf::qcf: before he passes by you, and just after he does, hit PPP. Dan will abruptly Ultra in the opposite direction, following Akuma and tagging him as he leaves teleport.

[Ixion_90]

D-bus; just to clarify, when I said U2 can be used to punish jump ins I didn’t mean with an AA KRK first (even if that’s one way), but rather just doing it on reaction at the top of his jump… The advantage of this is that you can do it a bit farther away from him since you need no KRK, and it’s not that hard to bait Zangief to jump by just dashing back and forth making him think he’s safe (and it’s really funny!). But then again, U1 works like this too and it does more damage… and the margin for the timing is larger…

u2 is okay for punishing jumps since it does reach and is totally invincible, but it starts up in 15 frames, as opposed to u1, which starts up in like 10. That’s a big difference when you’re trying to react to faster jumps.

U2 is great due to the sheer amount of damage you can get off of hp.koryuken fadc, which is one of dan’s best offensive and defensive options, which means it still has uses in matchups where you’re going to be doing krk fadc a lot, like the gief matchup. Also, it eats the ibuki kunai-vortex practically for free.

Yeah, that’s what I meant with “the margin for the timing is larger”.

I still think the KRK FADC -> U2 is overrated at many times. H Dankuukyaku is a so much better momentum keeper and it actually does decent damage. When you have only half ultra bar, or even a bit more, and you land a KRK -> FADC it feels totally meaningless to do U2 to me.

Auto-correcting allows you to do things like punish akuma’s teleport easily as he passes by you with ultra. Input a complete :qcf::qcf: Before he passes by you, and just after he does, hit ppp. Dan will abruptly ultra in the opposite direction, following akuma and tagging him as he leaves teleport.

… The input i do for the krk when being crossed over is (if i’m on the left) right, down, down-right, punch; the usual one that is, but i press punch right after the cross over. That’s how i do it.

Hmm, so it seems like I was doing it right then! The times where I’ve gotten out Gadouken may have happened because of me accidently pressing something more, or that it got messed up at some time when the cross up started too near me and ended too far away from me… I’m not sure.

Actually I know all about this auto-correcting stuff, I use it all the time… I just didn’t know the term for it. Thanks for the info.

[D-bus]

On the topic of what ultra for what matchup, I thought i’d write out what i prefer and why and possibly be given some corrections, because when I’m thinking about it some of my choices don’t make too much sense.

* Abel: U2, I like to keep on top of Abel and this just tacks on extra damage on a good mixup
* Adon: U2, as good Adons generally won't do too much thats generally punishable/unsafe
* Akuma: U1, fireball character
* Balrog (Boxer):  U1, Balrog is hard enough to get in on and with neutral jumps from mid screen this helps a lot in the damage department
* Blanka: U1, Punish EX Ball ball reversals and Blanka Balls in the corner
* Cammy: U2, but in hindsight i should probably be using U1 to punish guess cannon spikes
* Chun-Li: U2, Chun is fun to rushdown and probably won't toss out too many unsafe fireballs
* Cody: I use U2 personally, not sure how much use you would get out of U1 in this matchup, maybe someone could enlighten me.
* C. Viper: U2, another favorite matchup
* Dan: U1, to punish bad Dankus and guess backdashes
* Dee Jay:  Really not to sure, i switch inbetween, havent found one i like better for this matchup
* Dhalsim: Same as DJ
* Dudley: U2 to tack on damage
* El Fuerte: I use U2, but there may be reasons to use U1 that i'm not aware of
* E. Honda: U1 because it punishes Headbutt and Ultra i think?
* Fei Long: U2 for comboability
* Gen: Same as Fei
* Gouken: U2, even though hes a fireball character, is it possible to punish demonflip with Ultra1?
* Guile: Not sure, i just really hate guile
* Guy: Switch inbetween, havent found one i like more
* Hakan: U2 because of rushdown
* Ibuki: U2 to beat out vortex
* Juri: I use U2, but i feel like i should be using U1 to punish bad pinwheels
* Ken: U1, even though ken doesn't exactly zone with fireballs all that often
* Makoto: U2, it's makoto
* M. Bison (Dictator)  U2 because of getting in on bison and staying there is fun (Can you punish devil's reverse with U1?)
* Rose: U1 because of fireball
* Rufus: Switch inbetween Ultras
* Ryu: U1
* Sagat: U1
* Sakura:: U2
* Seth: U2 because when Seth tries to go for corner head stomp mixups, HP Koryu trades every time into U2 or HK Danku
* T. Hawk: U1 to punish condor dive
* Vega (Claw): U2, but U1 probably punishes shitty backflips
* Zangief: U1 to escape body splash mixups (Probably doesn't work in HIGH LEVEL PLAY!)

[PKSkyler]

On the topic of what ultra for what matchup, I thought i’d write out what i prefer and why and possibly be given some corrections, because when I’m thinking about it some of my choices don’t make too much sense.

* Abel: U2, I like to keep on top of Abel and this just tacks on extra damage on a good mixup

You just contradicted yourself. If you like to keep on Abel than U2 is counter productive because you make the situation full screen again. Using Koryu FADC Hk Dankuu mid screen and Koryu FADC Nj.Mp in corner is better. Go U1 for that big punish on openings.

* Adon: U2, as good Adons generally won't do too much thats generally punishable/unsafe

Like every jagga everything is punishable by U1 on reaction.

* Cammy: U2, but in hindsight i should probably be using U1 to punish guess cannon spikes

This one depends if you are going to camp/footsie Cammy (u2) or rtsd (u1)

* Chun-Li: U2, Chun is fun to rushdown and probably won't toss out too many unsafe fireballs

Bro, if you are rushing down then you should use U1. Also, fireballs and limbs (st.hp, sweep) can be punished by U1 on reaction if youre quick wit it.

* Cody: I use U2 personally, not sure how much use you would get out of U1 in this matchup, maybe someone could enlighten me.

Idk I suppose it doesnt matter, preference…

* Dee Jay:  Really not to sure, i switch inbetween, havent found one i like better for this matchup
* Dhalsim: Same as DJ

Use U1 for both, ESPECIALLY Dhalsim.

* El Fuerte: I use U2, but there may be reasons to use U1 that i'm not aware of

Because after you U2 you’re full screen again, and you let Fuerte get a chance to start his gay ass mix up again.

* Fei Long: U2 for comboability
* Gen: Same as Fei

You want U1 man. Positioning> Damage.

* Gouken: U2, even though hes a fireball character, is it possible to punish demonflip with Ultra1?

you can but its kinda hard. You definantly want to use U1

* Guile: Not sure, i just really hate guile

Doesnt really matter, Id use U1 cuz id never wanna be full screen again from him.

* Juri: I use U2, but i feel like i should be using U1 to punish bad pinwheels

and because zoning juri is a pain in the ass.

* M. Bison (Dictator)  U2 because of getting in on bison and staying there is fun (Can you punish devil's reverse with U1?)

WTF?? again man, that makes no sense. And I think you cannot cept maybe in the corner.

* Seth: U2 because when Seth tries to go for corner head stomp mixups, HP Koryu trades every time into U2 or HK Danku

So use HK dankuu and keep U1 for sonic boom and other stuff punishes, and huge damage.

T. Hawk: U1 to punish condor dive

U2 is a good way to get him full screen again, and you can punish condor dive with ex dankuu and maybe hp koryu.

* Vega (Claw): U2, but U1 probably punishes shitty backflips

You dont want to deal with vega’s footsies again do you? Plus he has bad wake up. U1 all day!

* Zangief: U1 to escape body splash mixups (Probably doesn't work in HIGH LEVEL PLAY!)

Uhmmm, U2 would be better for this cuz of the invincibility… and helps u put gief full screen again.

Just my opinions.

[Ixion_90]

I think that what D-Bus means when he says he likes to use U2 in rushdowns is that the current opponent character is pretty easy to stay in on and that the KRK FADC -> U2 is one of the frequently used methods in the pressure game, even though it takes you full screen again afterwards… So yes, a bit contradictory but I see what he means. I have a bit of that mentality myself.

I feel like PKSkyler about the U1. I think it’s just about always the best ultra to use, even though I never use it.

* Cody: I use U2 personally, not sure how much use you would get out of U1 in this matchup, maybe someone could enlighten me.
* M. Bison (Dictator)  U2 because of getting in on bison and staying there is fun (Can you punish devil's reverse with U1?)

About Cody, can’t you punish EX Zonk Knuckle and some Criminal Uppers with U1? That sounds pretty useful to me. And don’t forget he has his stones you can U1 through…

About M. Bison… I don’t understand, why wouldn’t you be able to punish his Devil’s Reverse with U1? I see no reason for it. Just make sure to be close enough and time it decently (really, you don’t have to time extremely well since M. Bisons needs his time to recover too).