Super Saikyo Dan Match-up Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
341

My opinion:



CHAR      RATIO
Abel      6-4
Adon      5-5 (debatable)
Akuma      4-6
Blanka    5-5
Boxer      5-5
Cammy      4-6
Chun      4-6
Claw      5-5
Cody      4-6
Dan        5-5
DeeJay    4-6
Dhalsim    5-5
Dictator  4-6
Dudley    5-5
Evil      6-4
Fei        5-5 (debatable)
Fuerte    5-5
Gen        5-5
Gouken    6-4
Guile      4-6
Guy        5-5
Hakan      6-4
Hawk      4-6
Honda      3-7
Ibuki      4-6
Juri      5-5
Ken        5-5
Makoto    6-4
Oni        5-5
Rose      5-5
Rufus      6-4
Ryu        5-5
Sagat      3-7
Sakura    5-5
Seth      3-7
Viper      5-5
Yang      5-5
Yun        4-6
Zangief    3-7
342

My unimportant opinion:



Character vs. Dan
CHAR      RATIO
Abel      5-5
Adon      6-4
Akuma      6-4
Blanka    6-4 (debatable)
Boxer      6-4
Cammy      5-5
Chun      7-3 (I have nightmares)
Claw      6-4
Cody      7-3 (I have nightmares)
Dan        LOL
DeeJay    6-4 (I have nightmares)
Dhalsim    7-3
Dictator  6-4
Dudley    5-5
Evil Ryu    6-4
Fei        6-4 (debatable)
Fuerte    5-5
Gen        6-4 (I have very little experience on this)
Gouken    6-4
Guile      6-4
Guy        5-5 (????)
Hakan      5-5
Hawk      7-3
Honda      7-3
Ibuki      6-4
Juri      7-3 (I have true nightmares)
Ken        5-5
Makoto    6-4
Oni        5-5
Rose      5-5
Rufus      6-4
Ryu        5-5
Sagat      6-4 (I like this match-up. #masochist)
Sakura    5-5
Seth      8-2 (I'm close to legitimately throwing a chair in the arcade every time this happens)
Viper      6-4
Yang      6-4
Yun        6-4
Zangief    7-3 (I like this match-up. #masochist)

T-T

343

After a long time of thinking Sagat owned Dan, I now think the matchup is actually even. The biggest reason is just instant air lk danku in two very important situations:

–When caught outside Dan’s st mk range, where Sagat wants to throw tiger shots and be annoying, Dan can just do not-exactly-instant air (fast air?) lk danku and Sagat mostly has to respect it. He has to block it if he’s standing or crouching, nothing to duck it with. He can beat it with a dp if he’s looking for it, but if it’s not a really late dp, he’ll trade. Obviously if you hit, you get a knockdown, which leads to the second situation:

–On wakeup, Dan can time a meaty instant air lk danku such that Sagat has to block and dp and even ultra will whiff. You can time/place this with very slight variation so that sometimes it’ll actually be a crossup! On block, you’re doing this such that lk danku seems to be plus frames, setting up frame trap opportunities. And of course, a knockdown in this situation leads to the exact same situation again.

My biggest problem in the Sagat match was that exact spot where it turns out fast air lk danku is really useful. You can also u1 on reaction to fireballs from there, but this is a good way to make things happen too. If those two threats make him stop doing anything, a) awesome if you have the lead, or b) take a step forward and ex danku to get up close, whiff normals to bait him into doing something, etc.

I know there are several other characters, including Abel and Zangief, who get blown up by basically the same timing and placement with meaty instant air lk danku, but I’ve never taken the time to really investigate what the situations and setups are and who else gets owned by it. Anyone else have notes they can share?

344

I had some success with the fast air LK Danku as a tool to approach Guile over his Sonic Booms. The speed and angle that it comes in at throws off his usual anti-air timing and forces him to just block as a result, at least until he’s specifically looking for it, at which point you can start mixing in normal jumps instead

Don’t have much to offer with the meaty air LK Danku though, hopefully someone else (Ixion?) has done some testing!

345

What if he focuses on wakeup? Can’t he get a crumple?

346

I also use airborne L. Danku on Guile, mostly instant ones from neutral jumps right in front of him on his wake up… haven’t tried so many angled instant air L. Dankus on him to be honest, but I’m guessing it’s a very good tool… if they don’t see it coming and focus it like Feimitsu says.

I’ve been using angled jump forward L. Danku a whole lot on Honda though, after being smashed to pieces by Stev0Knev0 for 20 matches in a row. 0.o Fuggen crazy guy… and crazy matchup. Anyway, the angled instant airborne L Danku is helpful on waking Honda because… I don’t know. It just seems to do. It doesn’t stuff sumo smashes though, and not really headbutts either, so… I’m not sure why it worked so well. I’m just sure I officially hate fighting Honda as much as I hate fighting Blanka. And that Hondas command grab reaches TOO FAR. Omg!

347

Interesting…I’ve found that :lk:.Danku beats all but jab and EX Headbutt. Maybe my opponents were doing them late?

[EDIT: Welcome back, Ixion!]

348

Yeah I usually use L Danku on Honda’s wake up too since it’s tricky and it beats his Sumo Smash (at least the light version) clean. I know I’ve been beat by L Headbutt sometimes though, and I’m not sure how M Headbutt would work against it but I’m guessing it’s not good for Dan. And EX Headbutt beats it, and EX Sumo Smash beats it but sometimes trade I think (not very good). So… L Danku just seems risky very often, so I’ve been forced to try other methods and fast air L Danku seems to do the trick fairly often. A few times I accidentally crossed him up with it, but he always managed to block it in some weird manner. Maybe it hit in front but landed behind. The good thing was that he lost both his back- and down- charges so he got quite mindfucked and I managed to throw him. Woo hoo, big damage.

I guess it’s like an adaption spiral… start with L Dankus on his wake up for some time, then when it doesn’t seem to work anymore try doing some throws or fast air L Danku, and of course block occasionally. When he’s gotten used to that then start over with regular L Dankus maybe, blah blah blah… I guess I’m not very informative here, just sharing my thoughts. Really not sure how to best handle this matchup.

349

Hm, good question, I’m not sure. Unfortunately I don’t have time to test that right now, but you’re probably right.

I like fast air lk danku against Honda when I see that he’s taken a step forward in footsies.

The more I think about fast air lk danku, the more I think it’s a big key to unlocking a whole bunch of better matchups.

350

About that fast/instant air LK danku; is there a consistent method to perform it? I just want to be sure I’m not wrenching my stick out of its socket trying to do it (lol complaining about easy inputs) and I’m not whiffing instant j.LK instead of marginally late instant air LK danku.

351

If you want my advice don’t TK it, if you know what that is. In case you don’t, TK (Tiger Knee) is when you do the motion (quarter circle backwards in this case) before the jump and the trigger input, which in this case would be “QCB > Jump > LK”. I find this very weird to do with this move since there’s a height limit prohibiting airborne Dankus when you’re too close to the ground, so you would have to do “QCB > Jump > wait a tiny bit > LK”.

In my opinion you should not use that method. I recommend doing it a bit like a mirrored version of Fei Long’s Rekkukyaku (Chicken Wing), which would be “up-forward-diagonal + HCB + LK”. Of course that will be weird if you want to do it in a neutral jump (which is a very underestimated move, just like the forward-angled version)… so in that case you’ll just have to press upwards and then QCB + LK really fast. These are my ways of doing them at least.

352

Any one have some Basic tip’s tricks for beating the Runners once they have a life lead? EG: Blanka hops/ Vega flips/ Teleports? i know the standard go slow and play well but i play a few people that are leaps and bounds better than i and they will just run the clock out. Also any advice for dealing with Blanka and Bison? 2 of my hardest match ups i would say alot of safe pressure they can apply and slowly chip me down… unless its not safe and i just havent figured out the punish.

Not looking for big dmg just something like “mash c.mp to beat danku’s” on sakura kinda thing.

353

Blanka hops have no invincibility, so they can be beaten by just about anything when you see them coming. Just don’t try to throw him since, well, he’s hopping. Not grounded! A jab will usually work fine. Be aware that if you’re late trying to poke him out of the hop he can do an EX Upball (maintaining his down-charge during the hop) which will punish you for hitting buttons. If you block an EX Upball, though: Free Shisso Buraiken!

For Vega flips, you just need to be ready for that possibility. They’re invulnerable during the flip, but have a vulnerable period after it, so learn your timing to punish that vulnerability. For the kicks flip that doesn’t go far, he should still be in range for c.MK xx EX Danku after evading whatever meaty attack you had planned. For the punches flip that goes farther, you have time to dash or jump forward and potentially even Ultra his recovery. Vega flips shouldn’t be effective tools, you just need to become accustomed to punishing them when you see someone using them. If they’re thrown out once in a blue moon, it’s understandable to be taken off-guard by them and miss an opportunity, but when they’re being done often you’ve gotta make him pay.

As for teleports, most teleport users will be backing themselves into the corner teleporting away from you. Against a character like Bison or Dhalsim, you can try some option-select tricks with meaty jump-ins that might beat teleports, though it’s hard to get an option select that beats a Bison back teleport, an EX Psycho Crusher and an EX Devil’s Reverse. I doubt Dan has any of those. :wink: Dhalsim has less invincible options on his wakeup, which makes it easier to punish his teleport. Akuma, meanwhile, is one of the few characters who can teleport forward through you with some modicum of success, so you just have to be wary of that. Much like in Street Fighter X Tekken how you sometimes jump back/backdash to catch someone using a forward roll to escape on wakeup, sometimes you have to guess that Akuma will teleport out of the corner on wakeup and pre-emptively move to catch and punish him. It’s not the most effective punish, but I like catching those teleporting Akumas with a back-throw to put them right back into the corner they tried to teleport out of, which can be pretty demoralizing. You can certainly go for a heavier punish, but all of those wind up leaving Akuma at mid-screen.

354

Off the top of my head~

Blanka: if you have no meter, I believe you can punish most balls with walk forward ~ s.mk. If you have meter, walk forward ~ cr.mk xx ex.danku should work. And don’t be afraid to throw out cr.lp early in the round to beat out balls to test your opponent.

Dictator: U1 for blocked/cross-up psycho crushers. You can also mash KRK when you block one of those. Other than that, I’m not sure. Don’t full screen lk.danku to build meter if they have U2.

355

After a bit more experience with Dan and participation in some offline tournaments this is my view on Dan’s matchups:

  • Abel: 6-4
  • Adon: 5-5
  • Akuma: 4.5-5.5
  • Balrog (Boxer): 4.5-5.5
  • Blanka: 4-6
  • C. Viper: 5-5 (debatable)
  • Cammy: 4-6
  • Chun Li: 4.5-5.5
  • Cody: 4-6
  • Dan: 5-5
  • Dee Jay: 5-5
  • Dhalsim: 4-6
  • Dudley: 5.5-4.5
  • E. Honda: 3-7
  • El Fuerte: 6.5-3.5
  • Evil Ryu: 5-5
  • Fei Long: 4-6
  • Gen: 5-5
  • Gouken: 7-3
  • Guile: 4-6
  • Guy: 5.5-4.5
  • Hakan: 7-3
  • Ibuki: 4-6
  • Juri: 4-6
  • Ken: 4.5-5.5
  • M. Bison (Dic): 4-6
  • Makoto: 6-4
  • Oni: 6-4
  • Rose: 4-6
  • Rufus: 5-5
  • Ryu: 4-6
  • Sagat: 5-5
  • Seth: 4-6
  • Sakura: 6-4
  • T. Hawk: 3-7
  • Yang: 5-5
  • Yun: 4-6
  • Zangief: 4-6

Feel free to correct/ask/bash :slight_smile:

356

I would like to hear your reasoning behind Adon, Akuma, Dee Jay, Gouken, Hakan, Rufus, Sagat, Yang, and Yun. And where’s Claw?

Perhaps it could the local players here, but it appears that Dan can easily be zoned in all if these matches barring Rufus. Speaking of, I disagree with the 5-5.

And how do you factor in Akuma players rushing you down vs. Akuma players that turtle?

Why are the twins separated by that half point?

357

About Yang, you are right. His minuscule crouching hitbox making LK danku whiff most of the times is a serious advantage for the twin. So that is 4-6 aswell.
Adon: He usually has the advantage against fireballers, but Dan is not a fireballer. He is a rushdown/frametrapper and Adon has to take huge risks to get Dan off him as he is not able to keep him out for long.
Akuma: Dan’s damage hurts him a lot. Dan can danku under neutral air fireballs and catch him on the recovery. In any case, I see Akuma going back to the corner in this match.
Dee Jay: Neutral jump/air danku early on his wakeup and you’ll see all his wakeup options shut down. On the ground he can make you suffer but Dan has the tools to fight him neutrally. Gadouken is perfect to stop slides.
Gouken: once you get in (it can be hard yes but not impossible) it’s over for him. He gets to the corner and Dan can start his game without too many worries. His parry is useless, and he suffers from forward-moving armor breaking moves (such as Fei’s chicken wing).
Hakan: same as gouken but it’s even easier to get on him
Rufus: his fat hitbox allows LK danku to connect from mad distance. I don’t have extended experience on this matchup though.
Sagat: this may be the most balanced match for Dan. And one of the most enjoyable too. It’s all about spacing, once you find the correct one, you’ll see that no one has clear advantage over the other. EX danku, LK danku and well spaced gadoukens are your friend in this matchup. You can apply pressure on him and push him to the corner where he’s in trouble.
Claw: I think this is clear advantage for Dan. Don’t know if 7-3 but 6-4 for sure. He has a very hard time against frametrappers, and guess what, Dan’s a pretty strong frametrapper with a solid Shoryuken. Claw has to think twice when to press buttons as his low stun doesn’t allow him taking more than 2 Dan’s combos in a row.

358

Interesting list, I agree with a lot of it, but not exactly everything…

C. Viper: Since you’re saying the Dan-Viper matchup is debatable I would like to argue that it’s 5,5-4,5 for Dan, since his cr.MK stops all H. Thunder Knuckles and because of great FA-possibilties against Burn Kicks… good pushback for punishing, and good dashes for escaping.

Cody: I’m glad to see that you’ve put 4-6 for Cody, because that’s a matchup I’ve been having a lot of hard time with. His cr.MK and jabs tend to mess up a lot of things for me. Also, crouch teching with cr.MK to avoid EX Zonks is hell for me since I’m using the PS3-controller, but that’s subjective of course. A more global problem with it is that if the cr.MK isn’t timed absolutely right, it won’t dodge it and you’ll be hit anyway. >.> I’m thinking about just blocking but… I just can’t do that!

Dee Jay: I would also like to say that the Dan-Dee Jay matchup is at least 5,5 - 4,5 for Dan because of the cr.MK dodging the Jackknives. You’ll have to look out for EX Machinegun Uppers though, it won’t dodge those.

Dudley: How come the Dan-Dudley matchup is in Dan’s favor? I can’t say I agree with that. You can’t really bait crouch techs with M/H Danku cuz his cr.LK hits you out of it. :S Also, his fierces can be a real pain in the ass for Dan, even though you can cr.MK them if you’re early enough.

E. Honda: 3-7 in Honda’s favor; I would have to say yes, but I’m tempted to say the same thing about the Blanka matchup… maybe not because of very well grounded arguments but because of a seriously immensely developed hatred for this character of pure retardation and braindeath.

El Fuerte: I think the Dan-El Fuerte matchup is good for Dan but not as good as 6,5-3,5… more like 5,5-4,5.

Fei Long: Fei Long is ridiculous. Once he understands that he doesn’t have to play wildly against you he can just use far.HP, cr.HP, cr.MP, Rekkas… and EX Rekkukyaku on wake up, and there’s not much you can do really.

Gen: I would like to say 4,5-5,5 in Gen’s favor because of his godlike pokes. His cr.HP is not to be underestimated, I find it somewhat like a mixture of Fei Long’s cr.HP and Cammy’s cr.HP. Scary.

Gouken: 7-3 for Dan against Gouken I find quite funny. That’s just a bit optimistic in my opinion… yes he can be pretty dead once you get into him but doesn’t that apply to Dhalsim as well? It just sounds a bit weird. It’s easier getting into Gouken though, Dhalsim is siiiiiiiick against Dan… you guys should have seen my match against Yagami in the Swedish Championship, it went hilariously bad. Once they start adapting to airborne L Dankus they can just use EX Yoga Blast; far too few Dhalsim players use that move! Also, if they’re general experts on zoning you out it’s… like… crazily difficult. Dhalsim is quite weird at close range though. What’s up with his grabs? Why do they ALWAYS work?? It’s something mysterious about them. Also, slides give you a hard time. So I agree that the Dan-Dhalsim matchup is in Dhalsim’s favor… and I agree that the Dan-Gouken matchup is in Dan’s favor, but more like 6-4 and not 7-3. Although, Dan’s ability to dodge Tatsumaki Gorasens with cr.MK AND cr.LK might actually make it a 7-3, hahahh. What a messy paragraph this turned out to be.

M. Bison (Dic): The Bison matchup is interesting. While Oathkeeper asks about rushdown- and turtle Akumas I would like to do the same about Bison. I feel that if the Bison starts turtling, then yes it’s a 4-6 in Bison’s favor because of far.MK, HK, and Scissor Kicks. But if he doesn’t, then the matchup is paradise! Once you knock him down, run forward and H Dankuukyaku if they have no meter to catch a very probable teleport. If he has meter, position yourself just a couple of steps away from him on his wake up and do L. Dankuukyaku. If he does EX Psycho Crusher, L. Danku will dodge it; if he does EX Scissor Kick, L. Danku will dodge it; if he does EX Head Stomp, L. Danku will HIT IT (0.o); if he does nothing, then you’ve got L. Danku pressure (or if you’re lucky, you’ll get a cross up L. Danku). Extremely demoralizing for Bison. xD

Oni: 6-4 in Dan’s favor? Nooooo… no way? Oni has extremely good pokes. I think far.HP, forward.HP and far.MK makes this a 4-6 in Oni’s favor. Also, I will never learn how to handle Oni stomps. -.-

Sagat: Don’t really agree about it being a 5-5… I would say it’s at least 4,5-5,5 in Sagat’s favor. He’s a great zoner after all and that’s one of Dan’s greatest enemies…

Sakura: Lastly… if there’s supposed to be 7-3 for Dan somewhere, I think it’s supposed to be here. Sakura is DEAD against Dan, mostly because she has a delicious hitbox i.m.o. She’s not like Juri or Cammy och Yun or sometimes Ryu and all such weird characters where stuff (mostly L. Danku) just keeps whiffing for no reason. On Sakura, everything hits! (Ok, not KRK xx FADC > nj.HP). Also, on her wake up, if you do the exact same thing as against Bison, you will dodge her only reversal which is EX Shouken, AND you will have time to double dash after her and punish with whatever. I just love this matchup.

359

I recently started playing Dan so by no means feel qualified to comment on matchups, but as a long time Rufus player I really think it’s easily a 6 - 4 for Rufus. Rufus players (myself included) go on too much about his nerfs, he’s still a really good character.

The main reasons I can think of right now are:
[LIST]
[]Air to air I think Rufus j.hk basically owns Dan.
[]Rufus st.hp or cr.mp are great anti airs, I know u can mix up with air danku but cr.mp trades quite a lot in my experience.
[]EX messiah is still a get out of pressure free card.
[]Rufus’ pokes are widely regarded as pants but his st.mk works pretty well against any character that has a good cr.mk or in Dan’s case his st.mk.
[*]Dan’s lack of a good aa normal means you can concentrate on baiting out KRK.
[/LIST]

360

The thing is, in this matchup, the neutral game favours a turtley Dan. He has excellent meter building with Gadouken, and EX Danku in footsies blows Rufus right up. EX Messiah can be OS’d, safe-jumped and punished. It’s not get out of pressure free, especially if you sniff it out (Dan can punish it hard on prediction, if he guesses wrong, it’s back to a neutral game). Dan has a solid DP. With the amount of meter Dan should be building, a conservative Dan will have a lot of defensive power. If Dan gets on Rufus when he doesn’t have meter, it’s traps and pressure all day.

The great thing about this matchup for Dan is that he doesn’t need to jump all that much. I’d say it’s like 5.5-4.5 Rufus, simply due to Rufus’ general damage output.

Of course, my perceptions of matchups are likely screwed due to the obscene amounts of Dan play since launch.

I think it was UltraDavid who also brought up a rumour of a dreaded DP-OS versus Divekick back in the day (Like it was some Dark Arts Black Magic Anime Bullshit). Not sure if that still applies. I haven’t worked out the specifics of it yet, as I have no training partner.