This is the first I’ve ever heard of this. What was the original theory and execution method? There are plenty of Rufus/divekick players in Norcal so perhaps I may be able to test this out.
I think the theory behind it was essentially using the 32123 shortcut to buffer DP from a stymied crouch-block versus Divekick > Divekick/Divekick > s.LK mixups when Rufus was pressuring you in close (Not on wakeup). This was back in the days of godlike Vanilla Ryu LP.Shoryu. I figured there might be a bootleg way to get it to work with Dan’s. I can’t even wrap my head around something like that, so I’m not sure if it’s really a thing.
(Mad Edits to try and explain.)
Timeline:
Forward
Back
Divekick Connects
Forward
Back
s.LK Connects
Input DP - Get nothing due to s.LK Blockstun
Forward
Back
Divekick Connects
Forward
Back
Second Divekick
Input DP - Hit Rufus with Shoryuken
Like… I have no offline Rufus to play against. You can’t pull this shit online, even with a Hitbox. It’s like tiny windows of error and shit. Whoever (UDavid?) said it was Daigo who used it. I’m no Daigo. :\
The hardest thing is that you have to be so consistent to actually prove it works. If I had some sort of tool-assist program, I’d be able to check. It’s like mashing… with style. (Cue Buzz Lightyear doing loops with some goddamn hotwheels or something)
dafuq I do not understand a damn thing. Do you think we can set up the training dummy to do this for testing?
The closest thing I got tonight was the Rufus player telling me to delay (“It’s like timing that shit correctly. Imagine the timing in your head he pauses then do it”) cr.mp+lk+lp versus divekick~throw/divekick~divekick mix-ups. But in the end, I just started doing a fuckton of fast (not instant) air Danku and the match became infinitely easier.
You can’t jump from a blocked low Divekick, though. Instant Air Danku would work versus high-blocked ones. This OS also potentially counters Divekick > Divekick/Divekick > Throw/Divekick > s.LK…
Damn this Rufus dive kick OS seems complicated, I’m not even going to try doing that. What I try to do against Rufus’ dive kick pressure (and the twins’) is, essentially, block (maybe 40 % of the time), crouch tech (30 %), focus backdash (20 %), and KRK:ing (10 %), or something like that. I’m sure this a very general “method” though.
I’m very interested in the EX Messiah Kick OS though…
Could you tell me the exact procedure of this OS/punish thing? Because I too seem to have problems with this somewhat braindead move… maybe because I’m very inexperienced in option selecting. And the M- and H versions of the ending part seem to be safe, except for their startups in which (off topic: is “in which” a correctly chosen expression here?) you can KRK if I remember correctly. But if you try doing that then Rufus can choose to make a delayed version of the L ending and beat your KRK with that, it’s really messed up. Should be called EX Messed Up Kick.
Also, another move that really cracks me up is Juri’s EX Senpusha (wheel kick)… it’s like… gggyyyyYYYAAAARGHHh. I just want to teleport myself into the TV and smash the hell out of her myself each time she does it. She sounds like a fucking soda bottle that gets shaken, like “bubbleboobleburrblubrbluUEH!”. I mean, there’s no really good punish for it except EX Dankuukyaku and U1 (possibly U2 as well). But sometimes it hits with a different spacing and then you can punish with better things like cl.MP xx Dankuukyaku et.c. It reminds me of Blanka… she’s like Blanka’s girlfriend or something, two masters of pure annoyance.
Rufus ex-Messiah OS is something I would also like to hear more about. As for that divekick>whatever mix-up, well, that’s another headache I don’t care much to be thinking about now.
Juri’s ex-wheelkick whatever its called doesn’t seem to be a problem. About 75% of the time after a hard knockdown, I try to j.LK for an ambiguous cross-up. It seems to stuff wheelkick as well. If I try to j.MK, wheelkick beats it.
You can just do it with any situation with a jumping normal on wakeup plus buffer EX DP, can’t you? I always assumed it was a thing. EX Messiah has 11 frames startup, and Rufus doesn’t have any normals on wakeup to go under late aerials. Just buffer EX DP during the safejump. The safejump window is so stupidly large that it’s pretty easy to hit.
Oh… huh… with all due respect, that sounds very uncertain to me. I have a feeling that the EX KRK won’t even hit and just fly right past him. But I could be wrong. But even if it does work, is it really worth it? It will probably only hit with one of the two hits, and the situation afterwards shouldn’t be all that great, and you lose one meter… to me it sounds better to just block instead of EX KRK:ing and hope you manage to punish somehow. I guess I’ll have to try it out and see how good it is.
But when you said “can be punished”, did you have anything specific in mind because as I said I find this move really weird and if he doesn’t do the L follow up then you can’t punish if you don’t KRK in between… or maybe you were referring to the EX KRK as a punish? It would be nice if there was some solid-proof way to do a valid punish after blocking EX Messiah regardless of which version he uses… but maybe there is none.
No way man, I just checked. It works after Forward Throw with j.HK, and EX KRK even catches Rufus backdashing because he’s such a fatass. You can do it after Back Throw with nj.HP and nj.MK. You don’t get the same kind of solid light normals to follow up with (compared to someone like Ryu) due to the spacing, but why not do it? One bar, and you get to keep pressure if Rufus is panicked.
Edits: Also, in that position, Rufus needs meter WAY more than you do.
I seem to have trouble in mirror matches… i can dish it out the shenanigans but cant take it.
I can relate, it definitely is weird fighting Dan… with Dan.
My one tip for you is to try to react to L Dankus and do cr.MK to dodge + stuff them. If you can do that it gets a lot easier.
Another thing is that you should crouch tech with cr.MK most of the time, especially on your own wake up… That way you’ll be able to dodge some grab-bait M/H Dankus.
I like Dan v Dan. The mid range game is fun because both parties mix up betweeno ex danku, st mk, cr mk, fireball, mk/hk danku, st jab, and neutral jump mk, many of which beat many of the other options there. Dan’s cr mk goes under lk danku and instant/fair air lk danku really well and even moves him under/behind some ex dankus that would otherwise have hit. So while Dan is good at pressuring Dan (like he’s good at pressuring most characters), Dan also has some options to deal with Dan’s pressure. But certainly a Dan on offense has better tools, a Dan at certain spots on screen can control the other Dan with certain threats, and a Dan with more meter is more threatening than a Dan without. So positioning and meter management are important.
So imo it’s kind of an interesting fight, I feel like it’s one of the better mirror matches in the game in that positioning makes a big difference because of the various threats Dan can threaten and in that most of Dan’s options, both offensively and defensively, are still available to him like under normal circumstances. It’s no Ryu-Ryu for quality of mirror match, but it’s not too far away I’d say.
It’s a scary matchup. I love it. It’s risky for either of you to jump, so you both get closer and closer with pokes and Gadouken until someone scores a knockdown.
Today I was asked to leave comments on a preliminary tier list for Dan, and I thought I’d share my response with everybody here. prepares for bashing
-Preliminary list-
- Abel: 5-5
- Adon: 4-6
- Akuma: 4-6
- Balrog (Boxer): 4-6
- Blanka: 3-7
- C. Viper: 5-5
- Cammy: 4-6
- Chun Li: 4-6
- Cody: 4-6
- Dee Jay: 4-6
- Dhalsim: 6-4
- Dudley: 4-6
- E. Honda: 3-7
- El Fuerte: 4-6
- Evil Ryu: 4-6
- Fei Long: 4-6
- Gen: 5-5
- Gouken: 6-4
- Guile: 4-6
- Guy: 4-6
- Hakan: 5-5
- Ibuki: 3-7
- Juri: 4-6
- Ken: 5-5
- M. Bison (Dic): 4-6
- Makoto: 5-5
- Oni: 5.5-4.5
- Rose: 4-6
- Rufus: 5-5
- Ryu: 4-6
- Sagat: 4.5-5.5
- Sakura: 6-4
- Seth: 4-6
- T. Hawk: 3-7
- Vega (Claw): 5-5
- Yang: 4-6
- Yun: 5-5
- Zangief: 4-6
-My response-
Dan vs Abel should imo be 6-4, Abel has huge problems with Dan. Then again, once Abel starts turtling, the MU can change, as against almost any other character.
The Bison MU is interesting. This is one f those MU where the opponent’s playing style really makes a difference. Once Dan has got his pressure against Bison, Bison is somewhat screwed. He has no reliable crouching normal that either dodges or stuffs Dan’s L Danku. Dan is godlike on Bison’s wake up; if a L Danku is spaced correctly, it will dodge all of Bison’s wake up moves, and sometimes -beat- EX Stomp. If Dan does L KRK FADC, this will happen: If Bison does EX Psycho Crusher, the L KRK will beat it clean and no FADC will come out, if Bison does EX Scissor Kick, the L KRK will beat that clean and no FADC will come out, if he does EX Stomp, it will beat that clean and no FADC will come out, and you will have time to do U2 after all these. If Bison does nothing, then you get a blocked KRK FADC. Bison should also be afraid of teleporting backwards because of H Danku. I would almost want to have this matchup 6.5 - 3.5. Then again… if Bison starts turtling, the matchup can turn into 4-6 or even 3-7 if he uses st.MK and st-HK like 80 & of the time. I would say this combination of aspects result in a 6-4 MU. Maybe 5.5-4.5. 4-6 is not fair for Bison. It’s similar against Fei Long… the MU doesn’t feel terrible at first, but it can change drastically if he starts turtling and uses st.HP and cr.HP as his main weapons. 4-6 for Fei Long seems correct though.
I would like to change Dan vs Dee Jay from 4-6 to 5-5, basically because of Dan’s abillity to dodge jackknives with cr.MK and cr.LK.
The Dhalsim MU -cannot- be correct. This is one of my absolute worst matchups. Once a Dhalsim player realizes that he shouldn’t AA with back HK, this match becomes insanely difficult. Dan has serious troubles getting in (although when he does, he is deadly). If a Dhalsim just starts reacting to jumpins with EX Yoga Blast or jump back teleport-ish, Dan is somewhat screwed. He basically has to rely on hitting Dhalsim’s limbs with L Kouryuukens and get in on him through that method, which can get really difficult. Focus absorbing-dashing could be an option but since Dan’s forward dash is quite slow, even that method becomes unreliable, or at least really risky to use. Many believe that Dan’s forward dash is really good, but I would like to argue that it’s nothing special, even though it goes far. For me, this MU is 3-7, or 4-6. Definitely not 6-4.
I see no particular reason why the Dudley MU should be 4-6, I feel it is 5-5. One reason is that Dan can dodge+beat Dudley’s st.HP and forward.HP with cr.MK (xx EX Danku). Even Dan’s far.HK can be useful against Dudley’s st.HP, for instance after grabtechs; if the Dudley is keen on using st.HP in this situation, Dan’s far.HK will beat it. One annoying thing about the MU though is that Dudley’s regular crouch tech (cr.LP + cr.LK) stuffs Dan’s M/H Danku, so using M/H Danku when baiting a crouch tech usually doesn’t work. Of course there are other characters that can do the same if they crouch tech with the correct normal.
The Guy MU should not be 4-6, it should be 5-5 because of Dan’s ability to dodge dive elbows with cr.MK, it really creates hell for Guy. Although, maybe it should be 4-6 because of Guy’s normals. Dan’s poking game is really limited, while Guy’s poking game is godlike. I really think he has some of the best normals in the game. So, maybe it should be 4-6 then… It’s that thing again, once the opponent implements a turtling game, the MU can change immensely. Interpret this how you want, I’m not sure if it should be 4-6 or 5-5. Maybe 4.5-5.5?
I’m glad the Dan vs Blanka-, Honda- and T. Hawk are 3-7, that sounds correct. Although I find the MU against Honda somewhat more manageable; Gadoukens are really useful pokes (Honda can’t BALL through them or EX Condor Spire through them or jump+Condor Dive them) and Dan’s L Danku pressure is really useful against him, especially when he has no meter. L Danku pressure against Blanka is usually useless since Blankas crouching animation dodges it, and L Danku pressure against T.Hawk is more risky because of eventual SPDs. I would say the Honda MU is 3.5-6.5. I should have more arguments as to why the T. Hawk MU is so bad, but I really don’t have any… I just feel it’s really difficult, and it’s so hard anti-airing T. Hawk without getting a trade (which turns out to be in T. Hawk’s favor damage-wise if he used a heavy jumping normal)
I see no reason why the Ibuki MU should be 3-7… I think it could be 5-5, but maybe 4-6. I definitely don’t see it as an 3-7 in any case, I feel Dan’s pressure is too good against her for that, and Ibuki doesn’t have a remarkably good poking game. Also, if her Kunai is spaced in a particular way on Dan’s wake up, Dan can do wake up U2. It has pushback factor so it will always hit her… The thing is that the Kunai must be very meaty (about at his waist and downwards), or else the invincibilty on U2 won’t be enough to dodge it.
If there’s one more that’s 3-7, I think it should Juri. This MU is torture, but maybe not as torturous as against Blanka and T. Hawk… her ability to dodge L/M/H Dankus with an ordinary crouch tech is useful as hell, and on top of that EX Pinwheel makes it even harder to apply pressure with Dan. Maybe this should be 3.5-6.5.
I think Sagat’s zoning game is just too good for adding that 0.5. I would say it’s 4-6. UltraDavid apparently thinks that this MU is even, but I don’t agree. Sagat is just too strong for that. Although, instant airborne L Danku is apparently really good on Sagat’s wake up so maybe it should be 4.5-5.5 anyway. I haven’t tried that method that much too be honest, but remember that Dan actually has to knock Sagat down to open up that possibility, and that’s definitely not the easiest thing in the world to accomplish. I’m not counting a knockdown by EX Danku either, since Dan’s situation after that isn’t really pressure-applicable.
I feel the Sakura MU is heaven for Dan… it could be 7-3. Of course if the Sakura adapts (e.g. with cr.HPs to stuff L Danku) the MU can change, but only to 6-4 at best. Sakura has a delicious hitbox for Dan while he pressures, and EX Shouken, her only good wake up reversal, almost never hits any Dankus properly. If Dan does L Danku and Sakura does EX Shouken, Dan jumps over it and still has time to dash after her and do a good punish. If not 7-3, then maybe 6.5-3.5.
I can’t really see why Dan vs Yun is 5-5, I feel that Yun is such a much better character overall with better tools and better pokes. I understand he is limited in some ways but to me those things aren’t enough for making this a 5-5 MU. I guess have no more concrete reason than this, but I want it to be 4-6.
Hello Simon, agree on everything except Blanka. I find it’s much easier to pressure Blanka than Hawk/Honda and therefore Dan is more himself in this matchup. I call it a 4-6 for Blanka.
Plus I didn’t know about the L KRK against Bison, thanks for that. Is it the only version that works that way? probably because of its vertical animation, I would guess.
Glad it wasn’t a total fiasko then. I don’t think I will ever agree with you about Blanka, I guess you and I just have different pressuring methods and yours apparently works better.
I haven’t really experimented but I think L KRK is the only version that will work this good because I think M KRK will go too far upwards… and there’s most probably no gap for an U2 after it either (on the other hand, I’m the only one who uses U2 so why even bother :P). So, I don’t know, but I really believe L KRK is the way to go.
I just noticed you made a preliminary tier list. I made one a while back for personal use but never posted it. Here it is.
Dan Hibiki SSFIVAE 2012 Matchups (IMO)
vs Abel 7-3 Dan
vs Adon 5-5
vs Akuma 6-4 Akuma
vs Balrog 7-3 Balrog
vs Blanka 7-3 Blanka
vs Cammy 5-5
vs Chun-Li 7-3 Chun
vs Cody 6-4 Cody
vs Viper 7-3 Dan
vs Dee Jay 7-3 Dee Jay
vs Dhalsim 5-5
vs Dudley 7-3 Dudley
vs E Honda 7-3 E Honda
vs El Fuerte 7-3 Dan
vs Evil Ryu 6-4 Evil Ryu
vs Fei Long 7-3 Dan
vs Gen 7-3 Dan
vs Gouken 7-3 Gouken
vs Guile 7-3 Guile
vs Guy 7-3 Dan
vs Hakan 7-3 Dan
vs Ibuki 7-3 Ibuki
vs Juri 6-4 Juri
vs Ken 5-5
vs Makoto 7-3 Dan
vs Bison 7-3 Bison
vs Oni 7-3 Dan
vs Rose 6-4 Rose
vs Rufus 5-5
vs Ruy 5-5
vs Sagat 5-5
vs Sakura 6-4 Sakura
vs Seth 7-3 Dan
vs T.Hawk 7-3 T.Hawk
vs Vega 7-3 Vega
vs Yank 7-3 Dan
vs Yun 7-3 Dan
vs Zangief 6-4 Zangief
Does anyone have tips of what to do against cammy and juri? those 2 are the ones giving me most trouble
Against Juri: Be very patient and don’t jump a lot if she likes zoning with her fireballs. Punish EX Pinwheels with U1. Don’t know what else to say right now. I find this matchup extremely annoying myself and find myself rather lost in it as well.
Against Cammy: Uehm… don’t know. Or, on your own wake up - LOOK at what Cammy does before you choose which direction to block, and hold you fingers for the FA buttons as your shield. Depending on what she does, dash out of your focus to escape her pressure. Sometimes releasing the FA can be a good choice. If she does a Cannon Strike, either backdash out of your focus or release the FA if you feel you have the time. If she does cross up LK (that isn’t an unblockable), dash out of your focus in the opposite direction away from her. If she doesn’t even jump, be prepared for teching a throw or just backdash away from her. If she does the Hooligan Roll on your wake up, mash either H KRK or a crouching normal to escape the Hooligan Roll grab. Do NOT only hold crouch to escape it, it takes three frames (I think) for your character to get into the crouching animation through pressing solely crouch, whilst doing a crouching normal gets your character into crouching animation in only one frame. So even if you hold grab on your wake up, her Hooligan Roll grab can still catch you at those three frames if she times it correctly. The same thing goes for moves like Hakan’s Oil Dive grab and Guy’s flip grab.
Edit: Sometimes Cammy’s Cannon Strike goes too far behind you and backdashing out of the FA won’t work so you’ll have to dash the opposite way instead just like against her regular cross up.
That’s about the advice I have right now.
Anyway… when I was at DreamHack Winter 2012 I managed to qualify for a Swedish Championship called Thor, it’s kind of an obscure arrqangement, almost no one knew it was there and they streamed nothing and we had to play without sounds. Seven other players and myself will be competing for the winner title in Dec 8th th (or 9th, I’m not sure) and the winner gets about 2000 €. I already know that my first opponent is going to be Yagami, the best player in Sweden i.m.o. He has one of the best Dhalsims I’ve ever seen.
So, if some you could give me som tips about this matchup I would greatly appreciate it since I was butchered by this guy at the Swedish Championship at DreamHack Summer 2012. Feimitsu has already given me some tips, but even more tips would be even better!
Help me prepare!
Dude, join me in a room when you have time and I can show you how I play the matchup. You are going to use clHK a lot in that matchup, especially as a meaty, as it catches instant air teleports and also recovers in time to punish normal teleports. Don’t be afraid of focus fireballs and advance with MK/HK dankus, if the Dhalsim likes to jHP sniper you, use also LK danku after a focus. Don’t worry too much about EX yoga blast, that shit is safejumpable and minus millions on block.
If Sim goes even once to the corner VS Dan, he’s done for.