Street Fighter III Double Impact or Third Strike?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
121

This isn’t really chun’s first game where she was top or near top. See alpha 2/EX series. (do those even matter though? :P)

I don’t think Ken has even been past mid/upper mid before.

I don’t think capcom makes any sort of active effort to decide who is top beyond purposely making certain characters weak who SHOULD be weak storylinewise. (Though it sucks, Sean really SHOULD be bottom. it’s obvious by the story that hes a complete and utter scrub.)

As far as 2I having better ‘presentation’ I’d take 3s soundtrack and run any day of the week. FAR better then the 2I muzak crap. And imo the most important things about fighting games are

  1. the characters/system
  2. the music.

Does it REALLY matter how pretty the character select screen/win quote poses are? :stuck_out_tongue:

122

Exactly. Even if Capcom didn’t give much details about SF3 story, it’s quite obvious that storywise Ryu is stronger than Ken and Chun Li.
Storyline tiers would be something like
0. Gill

  1. Gouki, Oro
  2. Ryu, Urien
    those are crystal clear.
    The other ones are not easy to gauge. Chun Li should be the best female fighter, Ken is good, Q should be powerful , Yun > Yang
123

alpha 2 for sure.
CE is debatable, too.

124

they didnt make ken stronger than ryu, they r a dead tie match up wise, but they both still have a hard time fighting chun still. ken is where he should be cus he owns more ppl than ryu, but the match ryu vs ken is balanced since ryu has a superior upclose game to ken because of the towards strong kara throw, he can push ken away better with ex fireball, and can withstand being hit by shippu. ryu also has good hit confirms up close as well, its just his meter opportunities rnt as frequent like ken.

oro, urien, dudley, yang and akuma r strong storywise thats why they r high mid tier. the extra strength they have comes from the player out thinking the opponent. if u take that knowledge and add it to all thats capable of the character they become scarier than ken and even chun. them becoming more powerful is directly associated with the effort u put into these characters. because u think MORE with them thats what makes them stronger in the LONG run.

ken’s sheer dominance comes from the player thinking less and the character ken making up the rest. ken himself is pretty shallow (just really good hit confirms, good shoto normals, ex hurricane for a jump in crossover) they made a shallow character that must be played 1 specific way because thats what gets him wins. same for chun… u play her one way. if someone good comes along and wins with a mid tier or low tier they end up out thinking the damage capabilities of these 2 THEN push what they do to get the win. but they need to stop them from landing there shit first.

for example in order for twelve to win vs yun he needs to completely avoid being hit by genie jin. i’ve seen this happen a couple of times. its the same for any low tier character they pretty much cant let the opponent land there shit AT ALL to win. some matches r more lax and u can allow 1 genie jin or 1 shippu or 1 hoyokusen to hit but if u wanna win thats all u can allow. in twelve’s case since he already is so weak and frail capcom set up the position of him that u must go that hard route with him to win. that u must do the impossible to win with him. i hear some twelve players complain its too hard… but twelve wouldnt be “twelve” if he had an easier time. because he has a harder time the player focuses more on what he can do and becomes better technically when it comes to zoning, footsie, and parrying. same with all the other low tiers… u become better in the skills the characters excel at thus learning more things than u would if u played ken, yun or chun. then the final test would be to win vs those three.

125

This sounds like it comes straight out of gamefaqs. Honestly.

126

While I don’t think that Capcom deliberately made the tiers coincide with the story, I do believe that one of the reasons 3S is so good and is played 6 years after its release is because the game isn’t balanced. Every character plays a role. People that want to be at a disadvantage with uncommon characters use <whoever> and can still win like Kuroda and Hayao do. If the game was perfectly balanced we probably would’ve already seen everything and the game wouldn’t have lasted as long. I’m not saying that I wouldn’t change certain things though.

That said, I know absolutely nothing about NG/2I tiers because I was pretty young when those games were being played.

127

People don’t play low tiers just to be at a disadvantage or to challenge themselves. Maybe some do. My Q is no joke and I take him very serious. I don’t feel I am handicaping myself I feel that my Q game is tough to beat.

Hayou and Kuroda don’t play Hugo and Q to purposely put themselves at a disadvantage, they play them because they are fucking amazingly good with them.

And while sure the tiers are pretty clear cut in 3rd Strike, there are no unwinnable matchups.

It always kinda angers me when people say they don’t play a character they liked and instead started using Ken or whatever simplly because he’s top tier.

128

Alright alright, they don’t mind being at a disadvantage then, and are willing to be at one to play their chosen character.

129

Ken and Chun are tops in those games because of engine flaws(although Chun isn’t even close to top in EX1(Gief and Hokuto), or EX2(I forget, but Sharon and Rosso are up there), or EX3(cant remember, but Ace breaks the game for free, then Garuda with Critical Parade BS)). Anyone who has even gotten a taste of the story knows that Ryu > Ken, and Chun-li doesn’t know how to make up her mind.

Capcom only makes efforts to fix what was wrong in the last installment(like WW Guile to ST Guile, 2I Akuma and Ibuki, Sean(?)). And for the Sean side of the argument, the fact that he’s not even 21 yet and he can’t beat Ryu doesn’t mean much when Ryu > damn near everyone else anyway. That’s like saying Alex is weak since he couldn’t beat Ryu either. Ken stopped beating Ryu when Ryu learned SRK XX Denjin setups.

Wait, so Ken is only played one way? And the only reason Ken is better than Ryu is because of meter? So if Shippu did the same damage but was a longer bar that would make Ken not own other people? What about SRK x2? MP, HP XX SRK? Ken has more damage opportunities overall. Ryu isn’t as good in this game because his options for damage and pressure are more limited than Ken’s. Ryu doesn’t have Ken’s EX hurricane that allows him to continue with the damage afterwards, on ground OR air hit. Or the mobility of said EX hurricane. Ryu’s footsies are also worse, since Ken has s.MK and RH. He also has like 20 different ways to combo into Shippu. Ryu’s supers are both situational, and a little harder to setup. That’s just a few of the reasons.

The mind games that come from the upper mid are the only reason why they’re there. You say that Ken and Chun are played only one way? These guys LIVE this way. Urien’s game practically revolves around getting you to eat Aegis to open you up. Dudley needs to mixup XX Juggle XX SA. Akuma HAS TO RUSH YOU DOWN. And if you’re gonna use the tier argument, tiers are based upon players of equal skill. In other words, those mindgames are moot, because Ken is Ume-SRKing every risk any of them make.

As for the low tiers, there are only two ways for them to win. 1: play someone who isn’t better than them(in which point the tier argument is thrown out the window); or 2: play an extremely safe game, getting their damage where they can(which is what most do). There’s a reason why almost all majors have similar character results. If you see a deviation, that means that that particular player was better than the tier whores(and needs to see someone on their level).

130

Capcom knows who they want to be good, which is why Ryu tends to not suck. They know how to give characters good moves, but they don’t know how they’ll turn out once good players get ahold of the game.

There was some scrubby Gamepro tier listing of SF2:CE in another thread, and it was basically Shotos, Guile, then Sagat, Chun Li, etc. That’s what Capcom does. Once you go deeper into the game, however, the tiers change.

131

yeah… i don’t think there’s been a serious non-VS game where Ryu sucked. it’s rigged in a way, but i’d say not the way the tiers eventually turn out after years of high-level play.

Ryu’s CvS2 standing fierce: proof of rigging.

132

Ryu has stayed solid, but then again, hasnt alot of the other characters? I mean, Chun Li has been solid in the majority of the games, as well as Ken, I mean, aside from MvC2 where Chun Li is actually below Middle Tier(please someone correct me on this if I’m wrong), but over all, these three have been consistant to be at least Middle tier or better. I mean, not to be off topic, but although Guile was not in the III series, in the 2 series, he’s probably been the most solid character throughout that series.

I agree that storyline is not how they fix the characters for the next installment Saotome explained it very well. Otherwise if this where true, then Akuma/Oro who are actual playable characters would be banned because storyline wise they in the “God” like abilities, and Gill would be impossible to beat as a final boss, because storyline wise these 3 are the best, and Yun would not even be able to have an advantage on characters like Ryu or Akuma in 3S, yet Genei-Jin Yun makes it so.

It’s just on what they see before hand, and what they try to tweak going into the next, some examples. CE.Bison to T.Bison, T4Jin to T5 Jin, 2ISean to 3S Sean, if you’ve played any of these characters you will have noticed a big difference from how they play, how much they dominate from one to the other, storyline is mute on here.

Sorry to be so off topic, and again, can someone post of up some vids or point me into the the right direction of where I might be able to get some high lvl of play for 2I, thanks!

133

A bit off topic, but does anyone know if CPS3 emulation has made any progress? I haven’t heard about it in a long time. I think it’s safe to say that Capcom isn’t really making any money from any of their CPS3 games these days anyway.

134

Hypothesis failed. Give me 2I over 3S any day.

I think nearly everyone agrees that the presentation in 2I is just way superior; compared to 2I, 3S is the-same-but-worse in practically every aspect. Backgrounds, music, voices, you name it. Why does half the 3S cast have to time-share stages with someone else?

As far as gameplay goes, yeah, after you’ve had three times as long to fight the same characters, I think you can figure out how to beat them.

If you look at the timeline of 3S and end it at the same point where 2I’s ended (when 3S came out), everyone was screaming how Chun Li was broken and stomped everyone for free. Give everyone 4 more years to fight 2I Ibuki and Akuma at tournament level, and see what they come up with.

And when it comes to solid hit detection and gameplay engine, I don’t see Urien’s bread-and-butter, literally unblockable Windows 98 as some sort of checkmark in the favor of 3S. How is Chun’s b+fierce stuffing DPs “awesome hit detection”?

Finally, on the subject of Ken/Chun/Yun being top-tier because they are “supposed” to be… name any character in the game and I can give you an excuse why they logically should be top tier (if they were). It’s complete and utter hindsight rationalization. While it is true that game designers do intentionally make certain characters good, to make some sort of storyline argument for Ken/Yun/Chun being better than Ryu/Akuma/Oro is just ridiculous.

P.S. DI != 2I. Easy example that comes to my mind is Hugo’s c.jabx6->Hammer Frenzy. Doesn’t work in DI.

135

While I actually agree that the tiers were not intended by the developers, I am actually curious how you would go about how any character can logically be top tier. So… without further ado: Alex, Dudley, Hugo, Ibuki, Twelve, and Necro, please.

136

Yes, but without any success. Attempts have been to that, though, but again, you cannot confuse effort with results. On a positive note, DC emulation works, so snagging a TS or DI for the system would also be a good course of action.

I felt bad when Gouki was toned down in TS. The new move additions/subtractions were surprising. His roll dissappeared and he gained an offensive character lean with low defense, which was fair considering the five supers and the unEx Shak. Hadouken he posesses

137

more crap for u!

ken and chun were put on top on purpose and the points i’ve stated so far r concrete when u remember… THE TOP TIER HASNT CHANGED AT ALL SINCE 3S CAME OUT. they r on top because of the rationalization that they were sf2 characters - plus the fact that they were needed to balance the fights vs makoto and yun who would be top if they werent there. 3s is the last street fighter game of course they r going to have at least 2 old characters at the top.

u can argue against this but the fact is all these games were made by ppl who went to school for this and studied long and have a history of putting out games. they HAVE the control over where someone is placed in a tier list (how long have they been making fighting games? 10 years when 3s came out). u can see it clearly that they mastered that ability since the tiers havent changed AT ALL since the very beggining yet knowing that they wont change ppl still play it because the tiers are NOT as spread apart as other ignorant ppl tend to believe. this is good game design on capcom’s part, they deliberately made a top tier INSTEAD of trying to balance the characters and finding out they made someone too strong (NG, 2I), ruining the complete flow of the game (wow this game is fun! damn u picked ibuki… i better pick akuma he’s my only chance to win).

if ken and chun were humbly put somewhere in the middle they would actually be insulting the character’s existance in all there previous sf games. if someone is going to be at the top they needed it to be someone with history within the series (someone tell me that DOESNT make sense, cus i think it does).

ok, throw story out the window, my bad. i guess u really cant talk about something like that to a bunch of hardcore tourny players right? since u all go to tournies and know so much right?

from a GAME DESIGN point of view it makes sense. they deliberately balanced the fight with and ken and ryu. giving akuma all those options of course they limited his health but NOT his damage. in the final version he has so many more angles and ways of attacking (and running away). and NO, akuma isnt played rushdown the whole time. because of his air fire ball this lets him zone and keep pressure without being directly infront of someone. his teleport also allows him to get out of corners/genie jin/aegis if used wisely. if akuma rushed the whole time i’m pretty sure it would be a whole lot easier for chun to land low forward on him or for makoto to kara kusa his ass. REMEMBER 1 kara kusa while makoto has 1 sa2 bar and akuma is DEAD. they meant akuma to be played with a brain who understands all of akuma’s options not just for offense but for defense as well. from all of the high mid tier akuma wins vs all of them. urien, dudley, yang (to a lesser extent), and oro r all at a disadvantage to akuma. this makes him right behind makoto in all honesty.

from a game design point of view ryu being mid fits the bill because capcom WANTS u to think with ryu MORE than u think with ken. why else would he share mid tier with alex as well seeing as they r the main characters for that game? these decisions actively determine the tier list, and because of the unique structure of the tier list the game as A WHOLE is alot more interesting than second impact.

ibuki had EVERYTHING in 2nd impact… she was faster than 3s ken, could easily land and create more combos from more situations than ken, she had normal health like ken, had a bigger sprite allowing her more reach. she also had all her ninja moves and wasnt limited to the shoto pallette that ken has.

if they did have real high level 2nd impact tournies today the only characters worth a damn would be ibuki, sean, akuma, and maybe yang. everyone else really doesnt have enough to be even considered interesting to play. unlike the low tier in 3s… if Q out thinks u while your cornered he can make u bleed. same thing with hugo as well. twelve and remy being pixies r welcomed in 3s (by atleast me anyways) because all the sudden u dont have to play right infront of someone’s face inorder to win (they made them play very particularly because of the lack of stamina they gave them). there r more thought out reasons for all the characters in 3s. there is LIMITED reasoning behind 2nd impact.

the gap between top tier and low tier in 2nd impact is rediculous. basically u have every fast ass, fat damage dealing character versus all the slow ones. what happens when u wanna play hugo? or alex? or necro? u just get rushed down for free cus they didnt think about how fast AND damaging ibuki, yang, akuma were back then. not to mention sean is brain dead easy and requires ALOT LESS thinking than even chun in third strike. his meter build is unbeatable (way better than chun) and all his link and normal tornado combos took off way to much (and stun) for the amount of thinking that character had. at least with chun u NEED to learn her match ups vs ken and yun, and have manual skill inorder to tick kara throw properly and link into sa2 (but thats only the surface of her design).

if u throw out the story arguement and think clearly about game design it makes sense… part of game design is story in the first place. if u have akuma high mid tier and a player who is very strong, the akuma when played well isnt MEDIOCRE but instead entertaining to watch and play. suddenly akuma now is the akuma we all know storywise who is stronger than ken and ryu. strength itself in a character comes from the amount of BRAIN WORK a player needs to be play as well as the basic tools a character has. akuma has ALL the tools u need to win with him (winning as in defeating chun, ken, yun, ryu). its just u need to take into account u cant be hit very often… storywise if akuma is such a strong character… u think he would get hit as often as ken and ryu? uh no… he’s the old master of 3s in shoto form. he wouldnt be akuma if u can play him like a savage and just rape others without thinking.

it might sound gamefaqsesque but the approach of capcom tiering 3s themselves is the direct reason why this game holds to this day. if u do happen to go back to 2nd impact look at the sheer imbalance u can tell the designers had no way of measuring. the movements r shot as well. jerky or clunky unless your ibuki who seems to magically flow without hinder.

138

good stuff everdred. never would have thought of that

139

Alex: main character.
Dudley: continuing Balrog’s tradition of boxer being top-tier
Hugo: Other than Ryu and Ken, historically oldest character in this game, as Final Fight came out before any of these other characters were even thought of (and please, save the “Hugo is not Andore!” argument for another thread)
Ibuki: Establishing her role as dominant female fighter for SF3 series, which is proven by her being top tier in 2I and (hypothetically now) 3S
Twelve, Necro: mutants who are genetically enhanced to have an unfair advantage (or something similar, I don’t remember their exact storyline)

You get my drift. It’s a simple matter to come up with some arbitrary reason why character [x] is “supposed” to be top-tier. Notice how EVERDRED nicely glosses over exactly why Yun is top-tier, other than to balance against some other characters (???). That’s pretty much the textbook example of an arbitrary reason; throw 2I Ibuki or Akuma in here and I think they would “balance” against any character in this game just fine.

140

One of the main problems I have with 3s is the match-up between Ryu and Ken. Capcom gave Ken more of an advantage than Ryu. If you play 2I, Ryu was a little better than Ken but Ken still held his own. In 3S, Ryu can beat Ken but the player will have a hard time trying if players are both on the same skill level. I also didn’t think it was a good idea to give Ryu one stock for his Denjin because Ken has always had 3 stocks for his SAIII. But the one thing they kept consistant with Ryu over Ken is his strength and balanced gameplay.