dudleys qcb+p drill move was the most worthless move i have ever encountered. it has no value whatsoever unless you wanna use it to give your opponent a free oppening to beat you for free. even if the move connects and the opponent takes the hit, its a free combo for the opponent no matter what.
so whoever said rose taunt into drill was cheap, man i hope that was a joke, nothing but free damage for you even if it hits you…
No kidden, his drill move was garbage. Slow, easy to block and counter. Id take his extremely useful short swing blow any day of the weak and drop the drill move just do id never do it on accident.
Yeah that move was useless but you could super-cancel it and the best super to cancel was the corkscrew blow. Unless someone parried it then you pretty much was fucked up. :lol: As far as a tournament game, 2I was a worthy tournament game. When I would go to tournaments in 2I, the character usage was far more versatile than a 3S tournament.
please excuse grammar and typos
the tiers make sense in 3s tho, they DONT make sense in 2i. everyone who was top in 2i was there because the game designers didnt think about where they would fall if played at the highest level. they became top because of something broken that they over-looked.
ibuki, sean, yang… all being better than ken? storywise that makes no sense. ryu having two denjins? i thought the whole story and position of ryu was fighting through hard work not how much bar u have to set up a broken situation. of course they make akuma a broken boss character again… but what happens if someone uses him? just makes playing against him the same as playing vs an akuma in st. he’s the win button.
in 3s
ken, chun, yun… it SHOULD be harder to fight ken and chun… cus ITS KEN and CHUN LI. capcom’s not forgetting the history of these 2. they r like the boss crew from sf2. yun is up there cus the lack of damage scaling on the towards and mk in his genie jin buffs the damage. this i think was done on purpose to make all of yun’s genie jin combos follow a basic flow or rhythm that involved the player implementing towards and forward in the combos (they thought about how the genie jin looked while performed as well as how much damage it did).
well i guess the point of this post is with the appearance of chun, ken, ryu, and akuma in the 3 series the placement of their tiers on the list makes sense and runs parallel to the story of sf. tho story doesnt matter in a fighting game, ken wasnt “ken” in 2i since i couldnt imagine him winning EVER (and he couldnt cus everyone around him was so broken). chun wouldnt be chun if she was mediocre (sure sa2 doesnt gobs of damage and can be easily comboed to… but she doesnt have much of anything else that keeps her good without meter) and akuma wouldnt be the tru akuma unless the player played him like a bad ass to win. meaning since his defense is so low u gotta be a beast ALWAYS and not sleep while using him, this makes akuma not a cheapo but sets up the character design of him being a master. the player themselves have to achieve a level of mastery in order to be worthy enough to play him in the first place.
ryu is a good mid tier, and i think we can all imagine (and seen) him as a strong mid tier. he might not be on the top of the list but u gotta remember its an even match vs ken. he’s not too good and he’s not too bad. he is where he should be and with a capable player ryu wins through handing the brain work completely to the player. its a 50/50 agreement, making ryu as pure a character as his story tells.
3s is alot more balanced (and better game) than 2i because the designers thought of the overall seriousness of the character and reflected that in how they played. sean being top in 2i shows they didnt think of it. all of the low tier in 3s r all EXTREMES, meaning u gotta LOVE playing that way first and more importantly before u can think of winning. when the low tier wins in 3s, they won because they played their game to its fullest and pushed the extremes they have to accomplish it. the low tier in 2i are just left overs while low tier in 3s r manifestations of an extreme (making them good character designs).
on graphic quality comparing the 2 games… 2i is like a well put together comic book (that looks good with the 2 fighters not in motion) while 3s is like a fine painting from life. the designers thought about the frame the bars made around the 2 fighters as well as the scene they were in. in 2i, i feel the backgrounds r just backgrounds. the characters werent part of the scene at all. infact there was no relation to the fight and it didnt matter which one u fought against cus it wasnt part of what was happening in the foreground.
in 3s… take for example chun li’s stage. the 2 fighters r “IN” the scene NOT infront of it. the ppl sitting down eating there food r “busy” eating there food, but can still see whats going on 4-5 feet infront of them. the chairs and table in the foreground r apart of the scene and respond to the action entirely with each slam of the opponent hitting the ground a tea cup or saucer falls shattering on impact. 2i is a campy alpha3 throw back that doesnt fit the fighters that carry the interactions between them. even sf2 backgrounds had better relation to what was happening in the fight better than 2i and ng. sure it looked pretty but with two spastically animated character sprites hopping all over it… it is visual mess.
final point…
well u gotta look at it from the vantage point on what makes visual harmony as well… having a serene enviroment to fight in makes sense especially if you dont want to be interrupted. if it was in a busy street corner wouldnt it become a spectacle? elements that u couldnt control would become part of the scene making whats happening in the fight the SECOND most important visual activity. it should be the first and the background is the “location”. 3s backgrounds and movement of characters r put together well to make an event thats happening in a place. 2i is a scene that u wanna look at but cant fully cus u got your 2 fighters blocking your view.
well this is just the opinion of a painter who really enjoys playing 3s, its ok to disagree =]
This defaces your entire argument. I’m going to go back to play GG cause I like style in my fighting games.
I’m rather sure that he meant that the story matters less in a fighting game.
ok, ok story doesnt matter as MUCH… but the tiers r clearly how they r in 3s because capcom thought about how powerful each character was based on the story.
and i will 
i think it’s hard to say that in general, the developers intended X or Y to be top tier and A and B to be bottom tier. isn’t that something that just happens? like for MvC2, the Capcom cast pretty much sucks ass compared to the Marvel cast. Rog was top tier in ST, but who gives a shit about Rog (and Deejay’s story has no link to the rest of the SF cast). heh. but i can’t disagree that Ryu has been decent-tier in most serious SF-style games (HF, ST, A2, A3, CvS2, 3S), so i’m ready to believe there’s probably some sort of rigging. but most of the time, i think it’s an accident (like how Yoga >> everything in A3) .
Okay, I apologize. That comment was rude of me. Sure, you can adjust the speed. It’s just that it is tedious to do so because it is hard to get it where you want it in SI. Tis all.
Noticed the neg. rep. from my comment.
well the tier list has been the same for 3s pretty much since it’s release. thats the core of the theory of why its so balanced really. they intended for some characters you put more effort into. why else would twelve have that special win pose ending if he gets a PERFECT in the final round? he is obviously a very trick oriented and difficult to play with yet capcom awards the player with a very cool win pose just for him because of that. no matter how shitty the character other ppl they say they r, u still find that in the ppl who do play those characters they stick with them cus they fill that sf void to them. if that character wasnt there, those ppl wouldnt be there playing it.
it’s an opposition really, without a bottom tier the game wouldnt have a top tier and vice versa. capcom for 3s accepted the fact that they cant make EVERY character as good as ken and chun cus that would ruin the folklore and legends that were instilled back in the days of sf2. all the sudden this new gen can wipe the floor with the battle hardened chun and ken? NO WAY! cant have that. so they intentionally made these tiers how they were and built the characters within them. making ryu mid tier makes him apart of the new school cast. he is accepted by the new generation of players and this creates the wanting of seeing him in his previous incarnations.
intentionally making ryu mid tier while making his match up vs ken completely even shows the level of control they had when producing 3s. the low tier becomes in a way another team who r opposed against the high tier (high tier represents old school sf seeing as even yun gets an appearance in zero 3 double upper). the thoughts and ideas behind low tier r also very different from the thinking behind the top tier, this creates to me the entertainment of 3s. super thought out low tier versus the designer’s top. its sf2 vs sf3 in a way.
instead of making the characters and placing them in the game and later finding out who is top… THEY made the top and THEY made the bottom. this makes the game characters (even tho low, mid or high) still playable because the designers controlled the level of difficulty from fight to fight alot more structured then past sf’s. its no way as random as 2nd impact (or any other game where a little girl in a school uniform can completely shut down akuma).
why else would they make alex’s fight vs chun such a terrible up hill battle? because alex as a sf3 character in a way has to fight the past (in this case… sf2 directly) in order to be accepted as a street fighter character among the players who have had this long history they’ve been apart of most of there fighting game lives. it’s the same with the players who love 3s, purists will say it’s not street fighter. while the players who play 3s know to them that this is street fighter in a different form.
sorry for bringing up a completely different topic… i just really got bothered from what viscant was saying about about the 3 series.
In general, programmers try to make the game balanced and it’s all that matters to them, coherence with the storyline is not a concern. And as they finish the game, they have no idea about what the tiers are, because to establish clearly defined tiers the game must have been explorated thoroughly, and this is the task of the players. I’m sure that if the programmers knew beforehand that geneijin was that powerful, they would have made changes to it :xeye:
What? Viscant hasn’t even posted here.
no, it was from another thread… any thread we states his opinion on 3s as well =]
Last I checked, Viscant hated parry and preferred SF2 due to greater mind games. You seem to like your SF storyline to match up with the high level tournament tiers. I don’t see how either of these points are related.
How does storyline and mythos make Ken and Chun better than Ryu? According to the story, Chun has done a whole lot of nothing since the fall of Shadowloo, and Ken became a family man who only fights in the US Champ tournies, only to come to SF3 for a chance to see Ryu after X years. Ryu has trained non-stop from then, so he should be god tier by that logic. As well as Gouki/Akuma. And Oro should be easily wiping the floor with everyone.
completely off topic, but Saotome’s av= God tier. I find myself wandering around the forum only to stop and stare at Iori’s dumbass for 5 minutes:xeye:
Completely off topic as well, but it’s a good thing too, because every time Saotome gets a new AV someone props him for it. So now despite never knowing specificically which props post refers to which Avy, we’ll all know each and every avy has been amazing.
well i disagree that capcom tries to determine the tiers baseed on stories or even that they know what the tiers are ahead of time. developers and designers will never and can never know the game as intimately as the people who play competitively for a few years. theres no way they could have known in advance who would have been good or bad. just look at some of their other games and see. like marvel, where they nerfed chun li, wolverine, strider, and countless others because they thought they’d be too powerful? LOL. Or making Sagat’s crouching fierce omgwtfpwned broken? Exactly. They do stuff to modify the characters, not fully knowing the huge repurcussions it will have in gameplay - because it’d be impossible to. you’d have to play on a higher level for years.
besides, ryu is always stronger than ken in every single comic book, tv show, movie, fan fic. its just the way it is.
it makes sense if u can also see it from the point of view of the game designer. 3s is the final version of 2 other games (and the last version of street fighter as we know it). of course they have enough information to manipulate a tier list from this. they’ve been in the business of making fighters for a long time. of course they have the knowledge of what makes a character TOO broken. they just made ken and chun broken enough to be acceptable top tier.
putting chun and ken at the top serve the purpose of having a wider top tier. this decision was made easier since these two represent the countless other old characters from previous games that werent put into 3s. u can see it storywise as well but these 2 r clearly top for a more apparent reason other than “capcom didnt know how strong they were making them”.
because ken is “ken” they needed him at the top, because chun li is “chun li” they put her there as well. this MUST have been an active decision on there part to make up for the neglect of balance in the previous versions. they still allowed counter matches and multiple levels of difficulty for all the fights among the tiers beneath ken and chun tho. so the game is still enjoyable on 2 present levels. its not totally lop sided against the top tier BUT there is a distinct advantage each of them have still. while fights vs low tier are much more character spefic.
the fights vs ken, yun, and chun.
the fights vs the rest of the cast.
no matter which character u play its one or the other that decides how u play the game. this is was all thought of by capcom. tho tiers in other games might be random like how weak they put capcom’s side in mvc2. maybe capcom themselves let marvel take the lead and allowed marvel’s characters better presence since capcom themselves r the ones hosting the game. makes sense? no? i thought so… lol
capcom characters still r far and between on mvc2 but i think its a game centered more for the marvel side of the roster since the system itself developed from children of the atom (a capcom game with a system built for marvel characters). that might be wrong or full of shit but thats how i rationalize there decisions in my head.
What the fuck are you talking about? I mean, honestly, step back and think. I don’t have time to refute this entire post, but if you think that Capcom made a honest decision to make Ken and Chun-li better than Ryu, who IS more popular and recognizable(and basically is the poster boy for SF), then actually sat down and made it that way when in EVERY SUBSEQUENT SF RELATED GAME neither Ken or Chun were even remotely that good, you gots to be smoking some good shit, and I hope it can’t be caught on random piss tests, cuz I want some.
I’ll edit this later.