Seeing all this talk about 3S character balancing, draws me to wonder if Capcom should have included a “Player Mode” option to where you had the choice playing characters in their SF3NG or 2I modes (don’t even ask what they would do with the new 3S characters). Somewhat similar to HSF2’s “Player Mode.”
What really gets me is that you really think that Capcom intended Ken and Chun to be top tier from start, when Chun is possibly the most braindead top tier yet. High level Chun is all about getting meter, then making your opponent choose between getting thrown and catching a random hit XX SA2. And I also like how you dropped Yun from the top tier argument, especially considering he had that GJ in 2I and he had the old GJ in NG, neither of which in particular made him top(in NG it was his safe target combos and the stupid links you could do into them, as well as the amount of stun the twins did back then, and he was ass in 2I). All of a sudden they tweak his damage a little, and people figure out how to fool the engine into giving them the most damage possible and he becomes top?
Honestly, you have an interesting idea, but if Capcom meant for tiers to be they are, then Ryu and Ken would’ve ran NG, they would’ve beaten out Sean at the very least in 2I, and Ryu would be up in the upper mid with Makoto, Dudley and Friends. The fact of the matter is, NO, they had no specific intent on making characters specifically top in 3S, most of the top tier is established because their moves are complmented by the engine changes. Chun is top because she has s.HP, c.MK and SA2 to back her up. If c.MK wasn’t linkable and had such a long cancel window, there would be a lot more risk involved in her game. And IIRC, this was proved in later incarnations of 3S Chun, like ver B(that no one plays), CvS2, and CFJ(which no one likes). Please show me this underlying layer of skill that you need with Chun in order to win. What is it? Knowing when to stick out c.MK instead of karathrowing? Knowing when to spam b+HP for meter and to annoy anyone listening to the live feed? Knowing when to block? Ken is top because of the ability to juggle 2 SRKs off a ground hit, his Shippu super cancels actually doing respectable damage now, and his versatility. He’s always a threat. Once again, the engine changes help him succeed. As for Yun, it’s all Genei Jin. He has nothing else anymore.
Ryu and Alex being mid because they’re main characters is BULLSHIT, because 3S was all about Chun saving some little girl from Urien. Never forget that. All other stories are pointless. And I’m saying throw story out the window because you’re using story to justify gameplay. Ryu has been constantly training since SF2. Chun has been cleaning up the remnants of Shadowloo for a few years, then pretty much doing nothing but her normal job since then. Ryu joins the tournament to fight stronger people. Chun joins because some random little girl is being held by Urien for no reason. Is that a good reason for Chun to be top? By that logic, Elena should be top tier because she is a happy-go-lucky schoolgirl that likes to fight. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Remember, these incredably smart people that supposedly made the top tier for 3S also made the top tier of SFA3.
The designers work on BALANCE. The tiers are an indirect result of that. And when people say “this is too strong, or too weak” they attempt to fix it in the next installment. Once again, Akuma’s divekick and stamina(which they did similarly in SFA3 as well), Ibuki and Sean in general, and whatever broken stuff that Hugo had that they had to make him slightly worse. And on the opposite end of the spectrum, Ken not losing damage opportunities because damage scaling doesn’t eat his SAs up, and for some reason allowing Jab SRK to juggle, Urien’s attacks flowing better, and better Aegis, etc.
The problem with you saying 2I’s balance and tiers are BS, then stating 3S’s tiers not changing as an example is FUCKING STUPID. Both games’ tiers were pretty much set in stone from the beginning. 2I’s tiers, especially for top did NOT CHANGE with the exception of when Akuma was unlocked. Most fighting games the unlockable final/hidden boss usually ends up top tier unless they deliberately give you a different version of him/her to use. Example, SFA Akuma. ST Akuma. Any version of Shin Akuma that didn’t have a damage penalty. Gill.
I think the error in your logic comes from you being confused in who actually compiles tier data. The designers don’t sit down and play every matchup. If they did, then they would’ve given Sean something to work with. All they do is ensure the game doesn’t crash when Twelve does an SA while invisible to Hugo while on Yun’s stage. WE make the tiers. We do the hard work. Some of the developers would easily get their asses handed to them by most of the players. We are the ones that look for karathrows and roll cancelling. We are the ones that try to bend the engine to our will. They may know the easter eggs they put in, but we know EVERYTHING ELSE.
You have to keep in mind that like Ibuki’s dumb 2I combos and other things, there are variables in ever game (in this case, 3S) which aren’t taken into account. Capcom didn’t know about the Genei-jin combos that people use now…they made the meter so short because they figured you could only get like 25% damage from it, and that was in the corner. They probably didn’t put 2 and 2 together and didn’t realize how fast whiffing c.SP built meter for him.
Capcom didn’t know about Aegis juggles, as they are. They probably didn’t even realize you could hit confirm. Keep in mind, when making the game, Capcom knew about as much as players knew in the first week, if that. Keep in mind kara-throwing was an accident, …and was either ruled to not be practical because of the timing and smallish range inrease, or missed completely. People have mentioned Oro…Capcom didn’t know about the crazy Tengu combos or the unblockables, so remove those, too. And so on.
3S Chun was meant to be good, however. SA2 is really, really ridiculous…goes through fireballs, hits airborne opponents (anti-air parry -> c.FK ->SA2, though this could be an oversight too), crazy Fierces. I don’t think they realized HOW good she would be, but they obviously stacked the deck in her favor (maybe they forgot to tweak the damage and thought people would be using SA1?). She is, after all, the star of the game.
It is entirely possible that Ryu and Ken have a fairly even match, because they have such a similar character design and moveset. They ALWAYS have a pretty even match.
In the process of taking out stuff that was too good while still adding new things (see Ibuki and Alex for an example of each), the tiers will change, because Capcom will miss things. Hindsight being 20/20, they’d probably have given Ryu back his 2nd Denjin, or gone the standard Capcom route of raping everyone else.
crap is another word for truth… i heard
ryu and alex are the main characters in 3s. every streetfighter i can think of the two main characters are always where the player 1 and player 2 cursors start. i guess its a convient accident that they were both mid tier with alex has to still work a bit harder than ryu right? since capcom is a bunch of game designers who wouldnt test the individual strengths of a character vs every other one, just a happy accident right? i mean its the last street fighter game OF COURSE they werent thinking about the longevity and evolution of the game itself…
u might say thats its the players who structure the tier list but u gotta realize after 10 years of game making, u CAN’T NOT think about tiers since 95% of there fighters are played on tourny level.
i will not believe that a game company that spawns so many tourny worthy games DOES NOT think about tiers. to be in the fighting game business that long and still leave it up to “chance” is REALLY insulting to us the ppl who actually play the game.
u give players too much credit about “discovering things” as well. in 3s whats the most game breaking glitch discovered? charge partitioning? nope, that balances and makes charge characters more useful. kara throwing? ummm nope, try again. chun li? nope, they meant her to be a whore just like they meant for ken to be the bastard who is strong enough to handle her. if capcom fluked this tier list and its the way it is cus they didnt know what they were doing than u really dont have respect for the level of skill it takes to create something so complex and multi-faceted.
kara throws and kara specials were also in the margin of error they controlled as well. for example, the far kara throw chun has is with neutral mk. if she messes up her kara throw the normal comes out leaving her open. with remy’s kara throw (about the same amount of range as chun’s) is with his far roundhouse. if he misses the kara throw the roundhouse comes out punishing the player with atleast TWICE as long a recovery for the far roundhouse when compared to chun’s neutral mk whiff (they both have a similar animation as well). they gave remy and chun the same kara throw range but cushions chun’s with the ability to do NEUTRAL mk into throw. this means as long as the mk moves her into range she’ll be able to get the throw. while remy has to be in far roundhouse range any closer and he’ll get the cl roundhouse and that wont move him forward if u kara cancel it. just this simple difference makes chun easier to handle kara throws with while remy needs to be alot more cautious/skilled to get the same results.
with kara specials OF COURSE they saw this coming. they made the presence of it character specific but its there for the ppl who NEED it. for ken if he’s able to get st strong into jab srk, into kara jab srk HE DESERVES TO HIT U. kara specials are just another level they push the players to in order to differentiate the normal player from a better player. for a low tier character like remy, he needs to kara his rising rage flash with strong inorder to get the rrf after a neutral throw versus dudley, yun, yang, oro, and ibuki. without the KNOWLEDGE to kara the rrf his corner throw set ups weaken significantly versus these 5. in remy’s case capcom makes it necessary u to learn how to kara in these matches if u want to have the same level of results if u get someone in the corner.
capcom thought about this. its not random no matter how random it was for all the other game references u can come with they thought of kara’s (even back in the days of sf2).
your right they messed up on every other tier list cus they tried to make every character “balanced”. 3s is different because they unbalanced the characters to a certain degree that they accounted for.
why u cant believe they could take the info from second impact, slow down the game a tad, draw ideas from other sf games to balance the systems each character has and purposely structure the top tier and mid tiers based on ryu, akuma, ken, and chun li? all 4 they have more history with thus better control over. this system makes more sense than arbitrarily balancing each character individually.
these r educated/experienced game designers who know the in’s and out’s of what they put into each character. they might not know how to out play u, but they know what they gave each character.
SF3: New Generation Note who is in the bottom left(1p default) and bottom right(2p default). Also note that this was NOT their game. Alex was the (sole)main character.
I can’t find visual proof at this second, but I’m fairly sure it started on Ryu and Ken in 2I as well.
At that point it was NOT to be the last SF game. It WAS supposed to end the 3 series.
Once again, they released SFA3 in the same year. Please try to explain that one.
Once again, SFA3.
I have seen Mugen “programmers” make characters just as simple as Chun Li. All you have to do is fuck up their move properties. I have no problem with Chun being strong. But when she is strong AND simple, there’s something wrong there.
Do you understand WHY kara cancels exist?
Apparantly not. Kara cancelling is the result of Capcom being lenient with special commands. In a good handful of normals, there are a few frames, usually in the very beginning, that allow you to still perform a special. All you’re doing is using a move that moves you forward in that timeframe and cancelling it into something else. Kara cancelling has existed since the WW days. Capcom had nothing to do with the modern day applications of Karas, it’s the players that have done this. It’s also the players that make these situations to maximize damage. Just like option select wakeups in ST.
No, it still is. In ST, you can’t do short short super without either linking the super, or kara cancelling a different normal.
Think about what you’re saying there. At no point has Capcom attempted to make everyone balanced. In ANY of their games. Neither have they, in any way, made a tier list. They have never sat down and discussed the ins and outs of every character, and what they can do within the limits of the engine. If that was the case they’d make the AI do kara shit and actually do more to you than close heavy attack XX Super. Or Random Super.
You keep dropping Yun from your arguments…
Because that’s giving Capcom way too much credit. I never said they didn’t take info from 2I(which they did, which is EXACTLY WHY YOU HEAR ME HARP ON AND ON ABOUT HOW SEAN SUCKS SO MUCH NOW), or from other games. I’m more of the argument that the 4 characters in question were made stronger because fanboys would cry if their old ass characters weren’t the best or near best in the game. God forbid the new characters in the series are actually good(SEAN, Ibuki), gotta have my Ken and Chun.:tdown: And they arbitrarily balanced a lot of characters in 3S.
sigh All that shit you spat about karas and shit…
SK wrote a shitload of stuff, so I don’t feel like saying much more about that. But Everdred, you’re giving game designers WAY too much credit, and the FG community not enough credit.
A game designer’s concept of “balance” revolves around frames. So a jab does less damage that a fierce, therefore, it should take less frames than a fierce. It takes ~2 seconds to prepare a charge for a charge move, but it takes ~1 second to enter a fireball command, therefore a charge move should have less startup & recovery than a fireball, because the overall time it takes to execute a charge move is inherently longer than the time it takes to execute a fireball.
And karas? Using your example with Remy’s roundhouse, do you think it’s because of difficulty that Capcom actually planned for roundhouse to be used as a kara? I seriously doubt it. Capcom probably figured that with roundhouse being a heavy command, it should take more frames. So instead of increasing hitframes, they increased the startup & recovery frames. Then, in order to “waste” frames, they had Remy move forwards while he does the roundhouse. After that, people figured out how to kara moves, and probably tested all normals for how far each normal moves the character. Do you really think that they planned for Makoto’s karathrow (rh~throw) to move her backwards?
I highly doubt that was put there to counter her Karakara, because they’re based off different things. Karathrow relies on cancelling the startup frames, whereas karakara relies on cancelling the recovery frames. And does Makoto need a 100% stun combo? Game designers aren’t gods. It took 5 years before that combo became high-profile. So you mean to say that game designers planned EVERY ASPECT of the game so that it would take gamers 5 years to figure out one combo? I highly doubt that.
And gamebreaking glitches discovered in 3s? What about Aegis unblockables? You won’t convince ANYONE that Capcom planned for Aegis unblockables. The 3s engine wasn’t originally designed to take getting hit from both sides into account, which is how unblockables exist with version A. In rev.B, they “took out” the unblockables, but not by removing them- they just edited the engine so that in the case of getting hit from both sides at the same time, you only need to block away from your opponent. Unblockables were an oversight which moved Urien up the tiers a LOT. Although he’s not top-tier with Chun/Yun/Ken, he’d be much lower without Aegis.
There’s no way that Capcom could have really created definitive tiers for 3s. Kara’s weren’t put there for characters who need them. Gamers decided that they liked one part of a character, and figured out how to bend the engine so that they could maximize their character. If Ken hits you with cr.mk, lp.srk, why should he deserve to hit you with a kara-srk if Ryu can’t do the same? I’m sure Ryu can kara his srk, but why shouldn’t Ryu deserve to hit again with a kara-srk?
Look at Marvel vs. Capcom. It was also made by Capcom. It was pretty much a huge conglomerate of random shit that somehow came together to become a tourney-worthy game. How does anything in there make sense? Infinites everywhere, fast-fly combos, AHVB’s, supers doing different damage based off of… nothing, the list goes on & on.
Come to think of it, MvC2 going from pure random to a tourney-worthy game makes me want to believe that evolution is possible.
This isn’t worth a brand new thread so I’ll just throw it in here.
I’m getting into SF3(3S), first time I played it was about 5-6 months ago, with a 2-3 month break inbetween.
It seems like a great game… the parries are both good and bad. It looks and feels all badass when you successfully parry something and do a painful combo in return. Just feels so interactive, you know.
The problem is though, that my reaction times are equivelant to a retards :xeye:
I’m just curious to know how long it took you guys to master this new feature. I can easily parry fireballs and such, and my internal clock is pretty solid so unless I’m stressing the fuck out I can parry super fireballs from Ryu and such as well.
On reaction though, be it parrying a jumping kick or low hard sweep, I’m useless. At least at the moment.
How about you guys?
I do get to parry some faster moves occasionally, but that’s thanks to lucky guesses, and not reaction.
The possibility to swap blocking with parrying is there, so I kinda would like to do that sometime soon… :karate:
I scanned through alot of the last page of this thread, so I might miss some facts.
But what caught my eye was “supposed to be top-tier”. That could be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.
The reason why (atleast) Ken is top-tier, is because Capcom is terrible at transitions.
They never fix a character correctly, nor seems like that take the time. If a character is strong in the previous title, they usually nerf them. Alot of the times, to the point of being not even worth playing (Sean). If a character is not up to par, they boost up their ability to deal out damage (Ken).
Just take a look at the previous Capcom games in the past. They continue to do this tradition. It’s really sad.
But um. EVERDRED’S post really boggles the mind. Good laugh though.
yeah… but as far as i know he could probably still school me with that Remy.
In all honesty, most in-match parries are guesses. Of course, most of them aren’t “Hey, I think I’ll press forward now for no apparent reason” guesses but, instead, educated guesses based on what you think your opponent will do.
As you read more strategies and play more players, you’ll get better at guessing what your opponents try to throw at you. Then, after that, you’ll learn that guess-parrying is a bad thing to do, in general, and you’ll start to block a lot, losing some of your parry skills. Only when you become exceptionally good (or at least a lot better than your opponent) will you be able to “Ume” guess-parry seemingly everything.
in the end, is that all that really matters?
Yeah but when you start the game, the cursor is on Alex.
However, in Second Impact the cursor starts on Ken and Ryu.
Hah, got me. It’s been a while since I last played. =/ My point still stands, tho. Not that it matters anymore since the guy I was arguing with has no leg to stand on.
Super Decapitation/Amputee Creation Finish!
K.O.
Lots of bad information going around about this game. I’m sure none of it was done on purpose, but it’s still incorrect.
How many of you are old enough to have played 2nd Impact in the arcades? My bet is probably almost none of you. I was, though. People hear things about this game, like “Gouki is powerful”, and because the game isn’t played anymore, it gradually evolves into:
How long was 2nd Impact out before it was dropped for the new 3rd Strike? 1 year. This is not enough time to determine everything about the game.
Everyone has seen 3rd Strike tournament footage of the game after it was out 1 year. It had two famous players using Ryu and Gouki, mostly throwing fireballs at each other. This would not do anything today. So why is an incomplete picture of 2nd Impact accepted beyond any doubt?
People who don’t know the game aside from their dreamcast or what they hear on SRK cannot determine the balance in 2nd Impact. Compared to 3rd Strike, very little is known about it. So why are people hating on it, talking about how poorly balanced it was?
**Why Ken is not top tier **
No double dragon combos. Crossover jMK is not very good. His competition is all around stronger than they are in 3rd Strike.
People say “damage scaling”, and it’s amazing. Target combo, hadoken, Shippu does virtually the same damage as in 3rd Strike. Damage scaling has little or nothing to do with how Ken was ranked in second impact.
Gouki is unbeatable
Only in the same sense 3rd Strike’s top is unbeatable. Dive Kick? What about Chun’s bHP? People rightly complain about both moves, but is Chun Li unbeatable? No, she’s just a nasty blue mutant whore. Gouki was also beatable. It sure as hell wasn’t a flashback to SSF2T.
Top tier is Shotos -Ken, Ibuki…
Top tier is Ibuki and Gouki. That’s it. Sean is right below that. Ryu having 2 meters for Denjin does not make him COTA Magneto, surprise!
I don’t know if anyone in 2nd Impact is as crappy as 3rd Strike’s Twelve, Q, and Sean. Maybe Urien is. Hugo is bad too, but at least has his corner infinite and other gimmicks for redemption. None of the bottom tier in 3rd strike have anything like that.
Sean did too much damage/Sean is broken
Sean’s only problem is his stupid meter glitch, which was not used in respectable matches. His damage is not too high. Jumping heavy, target, Hyper Tornado does about 40-45% damage. Ryu has always has been able to do more than this with a jumpin Shinsho. Nobody is complaining about Ryu’s damage in 2nd Impact.
It’s not a bad game. It’s got problems, balance not the least, but 3rd Strike has this also, along with 6 years for people to figure it out. Maybe something in 2nd Impact exists that was never discovered that makes it a terrible game. Until then…
:xeye:
Yeah, you need to shut up on that. Most of us are going off poor memories of 2I rather than hearsay. That makes as much sense as someone saying they were old enough to play ST in the arcades.
there r still alot of things u need to not use inorder for u to play 2nd impact competively. since when has an infinite been a respectable save for a character in the 3 series??? maybe its accepted in marvel but it shouldnt be in the 3 series.
legs… i was just tiried of writing i guess. 3s is good cus everything is used (minus sean, but even then u play someone way weaker than u in the game sean becomes a character that is fun to play against them).
chun b hp and 2I akuma dive kick r two completely different things.
akuma’s dive kick advances him forward and is an overhead, so even if u parry he’s still there to mess u up after (land srk, throw or hurricane). with chun bHP if u parry it whats the MOST she can do to u after it? a fireball? a super? the leg split kick? akuma has everything, at least chun is shallow enough to depend on super to compete seriously. akuma needs no super in 2nd impact. u can atleast hit chun out of her bHP if u avoid the palm collision all together and hit her leg as she steps forward. if u hit akuma while he’s in the air diving its only ONE HIT (he flips back after). he has normal health and a decent scrub level akuma in 2i wont be getting that parried that often seeing as how fast it is.
oh and ken not being top WAS because of damage scaling. he infact had even more shit he could do in 2nd impact than he has in 3S. strong fierce shippu was a LINK. far fierce shippu was a LINK. him being able to 2 two srk’s is GREAT but that isnt the main thing that makes him good. its his multiple hit confirms and the minor damage scaling he gets from them accompanied by his normal defense. then u add his air ex hurricane which i call the “shredder” cus thats what it does… which leads to a free juggle? thank u capcom. i get the point, ken is good.
now lets say we had this game only for 5 years. if someone became a tourny level sean OF COURSE the meter glitch would be something they would have to abuse. the brokeness would have to be accepted inorder for it to be played seriously. atleast the brokeness in 3s is controlled a hell of alot more. sure there is a tier, but it really isnt as steep as 2i and is MUCH more interesting than bland akuma’s and ibuki’s rushing down all day for FREE.
what makes marvel good is because of the interesting top tier. then u have combinations u can put together with the top characters in the game that just advance and make them more solid (capcom anti air with sent). i dont play marvel but i can see why it was played so heavily. the marvel top tier reminds me alot of the top tier in 3s. because the characters r interesting/diverse enough the game can be played. with ibuki and akuma… sure they r cool manual characters but there is nothing a player can use outside these 2 to fight them.
what u do when someone picks akuma or ibuki? who do u use? what do u do to counter them? lets talk seriously about that one if u reply please.
They’re both spam techniques. Of course, it looks perfect on paper, and it is a “bad” move, but it’s not 100% safe. Gouki matches were not nothing but divekicks. Also, Chun can use hers to build meter with little fear of getting hit because of the priority and the quick recovery. I’m pretty sure he had low health and he always had the small stun meter.
First, are you talking about scaling the Shippu or Ken in general? If you mean Ken in general, that applies to everyone else who had similar combos between the two games. Ken has had those links since NG. I didn’t say he’s top because of the 2 srks, but it’s a lot of damage that works on anyone that skilled Ken playes can do at mostly any point on the screen. 2nd Impact Ken needs meter to do all those links you pointed out. The EX air hurricane should still work for juggling, if my memory is right he could even link supers off a ground version. What does he have without meter?
Why? It’s clearly a glitch and he doesn’t need it to compete, anyway he builds meter fine with standing HP.
Why is this? Linkhappy Sean, Ryu’s high stun, and least one of the twins are not exactly a cakewalk for them. Alex in particular is supposed to be a bad match for Gouki.
They don’t necessarily have counters. That’s one reason why they’re top tier. Do Chun, Yun, and Ken have anyone that’s considered a hard counter against them? When you say Gouki is an “I win” button, you mean 10/0 or 9/1 matches against everyone else. Nobody in 2nd Impact has this. I never said 2nd Impact was more balanced than 3rd Strike. There’s a difference between balance problems and throwaway, 2nd Impact isn’t throwaway.
i see where u r coming from in your post i guess i was being to hard on 2nd impact. its not throw away, if it wasnt there u wouldnt have 3s. i’m glad 3s works differently than 2i thats all.
ken, chun and yun do have counter matches in 3s. chun gives ken a hard time while yun can get in on chun easier than most with his dives, but ken then counters yun (ken has srk for dives while chun does not). these counter matches rnt as extreme as some others in the game but they do have them.