Street Fighter 4 Dash - Abel

Well, you never know what Capcom is gonna do with anybody. I’m not even going to attempt to speak on that. They might give Abel a fireball and Genei Jin. They might not give him anything, but take away CoD and TT.

As for what I think he needs, realistically, a faster sweep would be great. Outside of that, it’d be really hard to improve Abel without making him way too good.

Yeah, I think Abel kinda sucks as is. No question… but I also think that Abel almost works really well. That’s why I still play him. If I didn’t feel like I could overcome most of Abel’s shortcomings with just being smarter than people, I wouldn’t use him.

Let’s examine it a little closer.

  1. Abel has all the tools he needs to deal with almost any situation. Between Roll, EX Roll, TT, EX TT, EX CoD, Ultra, Super, Low Forward, Stand Strong, Close Stand Fierce, both forms of Stand Roundhouse, Stand Forward, Step Kick, EX Wheel Kick, Focus Attack, the fastest dash in the game, and Stand Short… what can’t he deal with? Abel’s problem is that very few of his moves serve more than one purpose. Also, between the fact that Abel sets up a lot of guessing games, and the fact that his moves are generally slow, it means that Abel has to throw things out there as a guess, as opposed to on reaction. So the fact that he has moves to deal with everything is diluted greatly by the fact that he can’t pick from them after seeing which will be best for the situation, in most cases.

So, in my mind, this is a major point you have to realize when talking about improving Abel.

So, somebody mentioned increasing Abel’s block stun before. It sounds like a minor tweak, but it’s really not. If you increase Abel’s block stun, you allow Abel to have initiative. You can’t give a character with that much mix-up potential, and that many damn good moves to deal with the opponent’s shit, easy frame advantage. In a game where there is no buffer window for throws (like CvS2, in which you cannot throw somebody for the first 6, or maybe 8, frames in any reversal situation. So on wake-up, after leaving block stun, after recovering from an air flip out, etc… they cannot be thrown), you can’t give a character with Abel’s mobility a Low Jab that leaves him at, say, +4 or +5. That means that given frame perfect timing, there’s a one/zero frame window for an opponent to escape a tick to TT. Now, SF4’s HUUUUUUUGE reversal window would help with that, but that’s only for characters with a good reversal, and that would necessitate that they’re always pumping out the reversal (I know… it’s SF4… they probably are anyway…). The only other options are frame-perfect backdash (which does not benefit from the huge reversal window), or jump out. Now, jump out becomes extremely dangerous though, since SF4 jumps don’t leave the ground for 4 frames. So let’s say you give Low Jab 1-2 more frames of advantage, well now there’s a huge threat for ticks, and there’s an easy ass frame trap now with Low Strong or Step Kick.

It’s dumb. Now this shit is already in SF4… it’s just not as good. Abel’s Low Jab, already leaves him at +3, and Low Strong has 7 frame start-up. So does Step Kick, so with frame-perfect timing, that’s a frame trap if your opponent holds up to get away. But at least it’s frame perfect. Giving Abel 1-2 more frames to have a tool that essentially makes your opponent either sit there and accept whatever mix-up I have coming, or force a reversal… it’s just too good.

I could make an argument for almost all of the improvements I’m hearing from people. They all sound good in and of themselves. When you examine how they’ll affect the meta-game, it’s all too dangerous.

  1. Another huge problem is that Abel just isn’t safe. Fuck increasing advantage, he has many moves that leave him at disadvantage as it is. Not to mention, his style already puts him at risk as it is, before you even get into the frame data.

BUT… again… I don’t think that’s something you can change without making him too good.

I believe CoD currently leaves Abel at -3 or -4. That sucks. It makes it a move you really shouldn’t feel comfortable just throwing out there. You can’t finish block strings with it. You can’t toss out EX CoD whenever the fuck you feel like it… but that’s good.

If CoD left Abel at even frames, or -1, it’d be WAAAAY too good. Easy pressure into more mix ups. EX CoD would become a huge part of Abel’s game. Even regular CoD would become a viable mid-range poke. Again… for a character with Abel’s mobility, damage potential, and mix-up potential, giving him a move that good at mid-range would just be kinda silly in SF4. It works in other games with more robust systems, but in SF4, I just don’t like it.

You could make a similar argument for giving Wheel Kick frame advantage.

Now, what I do think Abel could use without being too good are a faster sweep, one more frame of invincibility on EX FS, maybe a little more range on Low Strong… Low Fierce should always pop up, if I land it on the ground at close range. A few more tweaks, I guess… but really nothing too drastic. Oh! Low Short needs to be 1-2 frames faster so it’s not fucking worthless.

I agree with all of these statements, but I would like to add that I believe the tournament players (yes yes, tournament players) that are posting, are being overcautious of making Abel over-powered. Maybe this is because of his mix-up game posibly becoming too overwhelming.

Look at Sakura, she’s essentially a better Abel. Health isn’t an arguable factor because of her move-set being so safe. She can enter in an put you at 2, or even 3 options, and over and over while dealing decent damage which meets Abel because she’s able to get in and poke safer. You want to talk unfair rush-down? One combo from her, and then you’re forced to make guess, which if you lose, you’re stunned. If you win, she’s still on you, mobile, and constantly posing a threat.

—On to Abel—
I always felt he’s rather complete design-wise, but very incomplete balance-wise. HAV hit the marks on all the small tweaks that should have been patched.

–My own thoughts–
My largest goals for Abel are:

  • #1 Abel having a way to deal with pressure
  • #2 Falling Sky buffed so that it is useful for anti-air, or just changed altogether. A special that is just used as a combo ender is stupid.
  • #3 Abel having: threat VERSUS wake-up or safety ON wake-up. Having neither makes him pretty crappy. His advantage/current theme is about pressure and mix-ups, and this is arguably the worst thing you can do to a character like that, who doesn’t have good pokes
  • CoD safety on block increased slightly, or having the EX even or almost even on block due to Abel’s lack of safe things, and it costing a meter…this is iffy though I feel it needs something
  • Wheel kick start-up decreased

(in addition to HAV’s notes)

that part made me lol

everything you just said is sooo wrong

you obviously have no idea what you are talking about

It’s quite remarkable that people are saying any buff would be too good for Abel when he is reasonably low tier & has a lot of difficult matchups especially when you consider that busta says the character is shit (which i disagree with) & there are 2 threads on srk pointing out why he’s shit. It seems with mago’s recent tier list thoughts & comments from other top players like Wong & Daigo that maybe he’s better than was previously thought, what does everyone think ?

Falling Sky can be a great reversal for Abel IMO

wit more active frames, a larger box even, more prio and faster recovery. Pressure from the ground is not his biggest trouble, people dont think hard enough as is before jumping in on Abel.

if you dont want him to be “TOO” good, you might as well make his most non offensive and least ground covering move VERY VERY good.

…and its also the most bad-ass move in the game :smiley:

I don’t get the obsession with falling sky as AA. If they made falling sky a really good AA then people will just stop jumping in alltogether, which means no more oportunities for big damage from 2nd hit cr.fp which IMO would be much worse, it’s actually kind of a bonus that people assume it’s ok to jump in on Abel. Don’t forget Abel also has close st.fp, cr.mk, ex tt, ex cod & roll as well it’s not like he has no AA options they’re just situational like Chun Li for example. Also falling sky does have some uses outside of a combo but again they are situational.

A faster jab & sweep are much more important IMO

lol you shouldve known by now that to some people, falling sky == AA. :rofl:

cr.hp, cr.mk. st.hp == ignorance ftl

I was definitely the leader of the Abel Sucks Movement. I don’t pay attention to what Daigo says; I just think the difference between sucking and being too good. You guys are suggesting Capcom fix all Abel’s issues. That’s dumb. All characters need weaknesses.

Gotta be honest, I don’t think Abel is a shit character - but there are still certain things I would / wouldn’t change. I’ve read through and would probably just change a couple of things

  • Better Sweep
  • Better startup / Recovery on wheel kick (Invulnerability frames for EX)

Where did you get that idea ? I suggested a faster jab & sweep that hardly fixes all of Abel’s issues. No one here is suggesting that capcom fix all of Abel’s issues just giving opinions as to what would be the most useful tweaks if any were to be made.

Any top players opinion is worth debate i’m not stupid enough to think that they preach the gospel, should of proof read your post you didn’t finish your point :-

“I don’t pay attention to what Daigo says; I just think the difference between sucking and being too good” ??

Shoryukens are very good, but people dont stop jumping alltogether against shotos. You just have to think before jumping in on one

The difference between sucking and being too good is very small.

Also, there are plenty of people suggesting Abel be fixed completely. Also, I don’t really get why you are trying to argue with me. I never said YOU are trying to fix all of Abel’s shit. I have no idea what you suggested.

In any event, I already explained why even small tweaks could be too much.

that’s true but if i’m a ryu player & i have ultra then i want people to jump at me but the likelyhood is that they won’t (in general)…that’s the point. At the moment people are happy to jump in when playing Abel & as an Abel player that’s what i want, if you give Abel a superior virtually gauranteed AA that will stop (in general). I would rather take my chances with 2nd hit cr.fp than a decent falling sky because it does tonnes more damage. Obviously you have to deal with shit when people jump in a lot but that’s worth it IMO just got to improve your blocking, teching & spacing :sweat:

…Is very small in this game.

EDIT: Wow, you answered as I was typing. I really wanna mirror match you now if we really do think the same!

The tiers are nice to look at, but they don’t really matter as far as character strengths and weaknesses go. Abel has TOUGH matchups against good Guiles and Kens, but they’re crap according to the tier list!

What I’m pretty sure HAV means is that Abel is right now sitting in a Goldilocks zone.

He can beat everyone by playing well, and he can lose to everyone by making bad decisions. Compare that to say, the Sagat vs. Zangief matchup, where even if the Zangief player is really good, even psychic, the Sagat player needs to make some kind of mistake or series of mistakes for the Zangief to win consistently.

Whereas Abel can beat anyone, but no particular moves or strategies of his need a nerfing.

This game is very well balanced compared to the last-gen fighters (3rd-Strike, CvS2, MvC2). Every character ACTUALLY CAN win. Except Zangief. :rofl:

It’s called debating, I have absolutely no interest in argueing with anyone, if you can’t differentiate between disagreement & argument perhaps you should stop posting :sweat:

In general I agree with most of what you say, I apologise if that’s not enough :rofl:

I’d like a faster sweep for sure, I’d say its hitbox should be lowered so that it will duck a lariat clean from any distance so that Abel gets a tiny boost in that matchup. Still doesn’t solve the fundamental problem that makes that matchup so bad but it is better than nothing and it wouldn’t affect anything else.

A tiny boost on his sweep would be nice, I’d like to see a decrease in his LK wheel kick startup… leave it as being unsafe but if Abel could set up a nice high-mid-low mixup game from sweep range, that’d be pretty badass.

Other than that, can’t see anything really that could be changed. Some invincibility frames on EX wheel kick would be pretty cool but I don’t see that happening or really making that big of a difference in the long run.

Oh yeah, keep meaning to ask… what changed between the different versions of SF3? I’m trying to find out if Capcom has a precedent for how much they will change up a character from one version of a game to the next…

Just some balance stuff + new playable characters, stages, etc.

Sean was TOP TIER in 2nd Impact :tup:

I’m always surprised by in a game with a roster as small as SF3’s they still found room for a joke character.

It’s not that I can’t deal with an argument. It’s that A)I have no clue who the fuck you are, and B) this is a dumb topic.

Anyway, to respond to Juice’s post, I don’t think SF4 is THAT well-balanced, but I do think that giving Abel the tools to deal with the things he can’t currently deal with would make him too good.

For the record, I think Abel loses a number of fights pretty badly.