Really? In Europe do you not have the “My first FG was SF4 and its the most awesomest game ever and you loozers who play whatever else there is just need to jump on the gravy train babeeeee!” experience? Hmmm… must be a uniquely American thing…
Absolutely not. I had World Warrior on the SNES, played SF2T and SSF2 (not ST). I got a PS1 many years later and I played Alpha 3 a lot. Tactics and stuff were lost on my because I was still young and impatient, but I spent a lot of time on that regardless.
As for 3rd Strike, I love it. Ken is awesome on it, I love the art style (hence my avatar), the music, pretty much everything. The only thing stopping me getting into it like I did with ST/HDR is because my only outlet for human competition is GGPO on my laggy laptop LCD. Put it on Xbox live with multiplayer lobbies and I’ll hit that up first day purchase. My only criticism of it though is that despite all the new characters, people only ever play the same 3 or 4 characters.
As I’ve said in my blog post (I hate blogs so it must have been bugging me for me to join in with the masses), there are a number of reasons I dislike IV. My main gripe is the ultra meter. I disagree that players should get a free 50% combo meter for getting beat up. It’s just retarded. I also dislike how badly skewed it is toward defensive play - easier reversals, hit confirm everything, safe on block moves now being unsafe on block etc.
The other games, despite being different in many ways, all had a good speed and responsiveness to them. IV just doesn’t feel tactile (can’t think of a better word). I’m not avoiding it because it’s SFIV, I’m avoiding it because in my opinion, the engine doesn’t feel good.
To me it feels like offense/defense is 6/4 in ST/HDR but is 3/7 in IV.
I haven’t hung around long enough to bump into these kinds of people, but I know they exist here too. Quite often they will venture into HDR - maybe they thought it was an SFIV mini game? You can tell because they just sit there and do their stupid jab combos (which fail because they don’t realise you have to chain cancel them unlike IV’s easy mode combo system).
I’ll be totally honest, I never played Street Fighter 3. I played it once for like… 10 minutes on someone’s dreamcast emulator… but I really would have liked to have played it… I would probably get SF3S if was released on XBL. I’d go for that in a heartbeat… I could get whipped all over again.
LOL at HDR “The SF4 Mini Game”… there’s nothing better than seeing someone get knocked down then start mashing jab… “Owww poor baby… game too fast for you???” Then you pwn them.
Zero, the reasons you state for not liking IV.
Aside from parry, isn’t that also a good description/comparison of 3S from ST.
hit confirms and a more lax reversal window.
I don’t agree with SFIV’s all day long reversal window, although you can still safe jump. I also don’t agree with ST’s 1 frame reversal window either.
Yes remy, its what I said, I haven’t been playing II all my life, aside from a jump hk, crouch hk at the computer. HDR was the first SF where I could play with others.
What irritates me about HDR is that Capcom just doesn’t care about it. You guys on xbox probably remember when the game would dc at the vs screen, and you had to restart the game. Well, PS3 still has to deal with that. And now Ganelon even believes that there may be more input delay than any that might be present in your version.
It’s like I said though. I’ll play anything that has people playing and I didn’t say I was dropping HDR.
Quit only paying attention to capcom games. blazblue has built in mechanics to prevent turtling and it mops the floor with ssf4. I mainly play the latter for cammy and ibuki and dan. I’m mad that the people who developed guilty gear made cooler and cooler games that don’t rely on turtling and advance from HDR while everyone ignores them to play a turtle friendly game with overpowered characters and a tier list they didn’t even try to balance. At least in blazblue you can tell that they accidentally made zoning the most powerful.
I’m upset that Cammy means boring matchups and her rushdown style is negated by the engine favoring turtling. Or that her mixup game is rock paper scissors. Or that to beat scrubby dp mashers I can’t even do fun stuff and have to rely on spiral arrow safe on block distances to cannon strike spam (which a couple people with sense learn to counter by holding block…so i throw scissors with ex hooligan…which is often countered by jab mashing…so I throw rock with not even close spiral arrows to bait…rofl).
I have to abuse cannon strike to even hit ducking turtlers instead of having a built in overhead because they don’t even try to balance the game. Of course, I could throw, but they nerfed that to fuck and so it’s worth it to trade against my throw with a jab mash punish combo. Then it’s rock paper scissors with cross up jumping lk/cannon strike against dp mashing…how fun.
Cammy is only competitive in ssf4 if you know instant cannon strike…does that seem wrong to you?
I started playing with tao in blazblue, she’s basically Cammy. I bought ssf4 with a mario galaxy coupon from amazon so I don’t feel so bad…
Quit looking at this like HDR is pulling from ssf4. I play a lot of console fighting games. This gen has been a dramatic disappointment save blazblue/KOF/TvC/MvC2 download. The fadc to ultra insta-win buttons and Tekken 6 with the launcher off a mistake to 60% damage juggles have made them rhythm games. Blazblue has damaging combos but they aren’t as execution heavy and nearly anyone can learn them without sacrificing their career/schooling/girlfriend. nu-13 and arakune are overpowered but not because of rhythmic combos. They control space and you have to close the distance through their tricks. That’s what upsets me about ssf4. Rhythm, the engine and game balance detract from control and fighting over space.
Here’s a fight with Carl. Look at how he controls the space with that robot!
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Warping isn’t an issue until you move into 200ms territory. Anything up to 150ms is more than playable in a game like HDR that uses client-side prediction.
SF4 doesn’t display ping, but I played quite a bit of Quake 1 before John Carmack patched in client-side prediction (Quakeworld). Since I ran a clan, I would go to a server before a match to see if it was acceptable and I would not play on any server that gave me a ping worse than a 50ms. That’s when input delay started to turn the game into quicksand. Anything over 100ms was like ice skating.
Basically, a good connection in SF4 would be better with HDR’s internet code and unplayable connections (100 - 150ms) would be playable without warping. This is why GGPO is the objectively superior option rather than the lesser of 2 evils.
Honestly, a lot of stuff depends on input delay and such. If a game is structured for -otherwise gratuitous- input delay, then each frame of input delay can act as ~16ms of lag buffer. The display itself has 1 frame of input delay, but a game with 5 frames of input delay could, if suitably engineered, appear completely flawless at 50-60ms one way delay. So, the design for games with on-line in mind should really consider including otherwise unnecessary input delay.
“I just don’t understand the hate for IV. Do you feel the same way for alpha, and III?”
I kinda like Alpha2 and 3, I don’t like 3rd Strike much at all. Even though I just sorta like those games, they don’t get hatred from me because I can see quality in the game design. There are a lot of things in 3rd Strike, for instance, that I don’t like (parrying, too much meter based gameplay), but even then I see it as a quality fighting game, just very different from SF2.
In (S)SF4 I see a lot of sloppiness in the engine and the game design. Honestly, SF4 has more elements I like in it than 3rd Strike does but I would never say it is a better game, mainly because those elements are so poorly implemented. SF4 gets hatred from me because it had potential to be a game I would have really liked but it is such a sloppy, half-assed done mess of a game, with such bad game design decesions, that it was ruined.
But then this shouldn’t surprise me since I believe Ono’s last fighting game before 4 was Capcom Fighting Jam. That should say it all right there.
^ Possum pretty much summed up my thoughts on it too. I actually really liked A2. If A2 didn’t have CCs, it would probably be my favorite fighting game of all time. But other than that I agree with everything else he says. SF4 is just sloppy. And what really annoys me is that they could’ve easily fixed it up in Super. Like he says, SF4 could easily become a game that I really, really like. It wouldn’t even take drastic changes. Sadly, they didn’t take advantage of that opportunity and instead did a couple duct tape fixes to random problems and called it good. I’m still playing it, but just for kicks cause it’s something new.
@oobob, I don’t know anything about Blazblue, it hasn’t exactly sparked my interest. My only reference point is SF.
@databeast, I see alot more warping in HDR than I do on GGPO. GGPO is very stable for me. I don’t know why, but there is pretty stark difference between HDR and GGPO for me.
@possum, SJV, I never said IV was the better game. Honestly, for me there isn’t really a favorite. However, people are playing IV over here. So it gets the nod.
Look I’m done, I’m obviously in the minority, so you guys can continue hating on IV and I’ll just move along.
I think a lot of the “hate” towards 4 is mainly for 2 reasons:
- It’s a new SF game in the main SF series, so all the hardcore is going to hold it to a different standard than a spin-off (Alpha, Vs series, etc). We all had really sky high hopes for it.
2)I think the hardcore crowd is upset because what a lot of people see as a sloppy game is the one that gets almost 100% of the attention. For example someone mentioned Blazblue, I played it for a little while, it’s fun but not really my kind of game. But it was a really well done game, with tight gameplay, each character really played differently but was still fairly balanced (hate nu though, LOL), took skill but barrier to entry wasn’t too high, etc. If every one was playing BB and it was getting all the attention it wouldn’t bother me one bit. Even though I’m not a huge fan of BB, I see it as a quality game. SF4 just seems to me to be a FG made by casual FG games fans. It’s a FG for FPS players, LOL. But then I guess that’s why it’s popular.
But in the end I’m playing SF4, having some fun with it. It’s just all the wasted potential that gets me upset, like SJV said it wouldn’t take much to make it a really good game that I could sink a lot of time into, but they made their money and the masses don’t care about the same thing that us niche hardcore players do (thank goodness S-Kill at least tries to inflluence from the inside. Imagine if they hadn’t listened to his idea to use 2D hitboxes on SF4, how loose and sloppy would the gameplay be then?!).
It still makes me laugh that neutral stance has moving hitboxes. :lol:
That was true in SF3 as well.
So i finally figured out what to do in this game.
Pretend i’m playing O.Claw.
After spending months with SSFIV and formerly being a HD Remix Player for a whole year, I’ve realized the following:
SSFIV is a great game in its own right, even though I didn’t feel like it at first. If you compare it to SF2 or SF3, it isn’t worthy of any attention. But when you compare the game in its own light, it is a fantastic game.
AS for the audience, it is built for both hardcore and casual gamers. Inputs in Remix are WAAAAAAY easier and built for casual gamers, compared to SFIV’s combo system complete with combo inputs, focus attack options, dashing and so many other options that is can be a deeply complex game to master. I venture to say that Remix is a better casual game to pick up, yet also has the depth that appeals to hardcore players.
I do feel the pressure of an HD Remix match is much higher than a SFIV match though. Damage is so much higher and riskier in HD Remix allowing for a more exciting game. SSFIV is more combo reliant, which is why my former main Claw has such a harder time in SFIV compared to Remix.
The way I think of SFIV is that if you compare it with current games/fighters, it’s good. If you compare it to past games/fighters, it’s poor. It’s good by default, only because the competition sucks.
I don’t agree with you saying inputs in HDR are easier than in IV. I personally find it’s the other way round (eg. being able to mash an SRK in IV as opposed to having to do the correct input in HDR). Also something like fierce punch xx jab SRK is something I occasionally miss in HDR if I don’t cancel quick enough, but I can do it every time without fail in IV.
Then there’s the reversal window. 6 frames is enough to ensure I get a reversal every time with a single button press. Nope, no need to piano here.
I agree that IV works for casual and hardcore gamers, but in my opinion, HDR is mostly played by hardcore gamers. For me, even if I did like IV, it’s not worth playing now until all the scrubs move on to something else. You have to wade through so much shit just to get a decent match. The thing with HDR why it really only appeals to experienced players is the damage.
Casual or new players can die in 3 mistakes or less against a good ST/HDR player, where in IV you get many more chances than that thanks to the reduced damage, plus you get free meter if you are losing to even it up.
One trend I’ve noticed is that all the people I can beat with ease on HDR are now playing IV, but those that give me a good match or beat me are still playing HDR. Why is that? Those are the scrubs/casuals/noobs who would complain about how cheap tick throws are.
ssfiv also has crazy difference in blockstun/hitstun, and nothing except jabs and shorts have enough blockstun, that is why you don’t see anything else. Also, wonky jumps, clunky ass roman cancel, and some sad hitboxes.
Honestly I find the opposite right now. If there’s one thing that’s a HUGE upgrade in SSFIV over SFIV it’s the fact you can put it on fight request, same region, same skill, and if (it’s a HUGE if though) you always play your best character, you will most likely get tons of decent matches. I really think it has the best ‘overall online experience’ of any fighting game right now thanks to having at least semi-functioning skill and connection matching. This is absolutely huge for me and is slowly making me want to play SSFIV more atm.
HDR is great when I play friends who’re around my level or people in Europe etc. but the trouble is that no game mode allows me to actually find these people. If I create a lobby it’s just pot luck. If I play ranked I could sit there all day hitting refresh to get a game around 100ms or less, and who knows the skill level I’d get to play. If I join a lobby that looks good ms, it still might be really bad or really good players, and it’s actually also pot luck on the ms, as that could be the only guy in the room you have a good connection to… not to mention people joining or leaving etc.
Why all the hate towards Coth and SFIV? 
Anyhow I tried to put myself in one of your 3 types of SFIV player and I think you are missing 1 or a few more categories. I suck at ST/HDR but I can tell you now I do not feel SFIV is easier. I think the game is actually harder. Two buttons throws, teching throws, 3 levels of focus attacks, armor breaking moves, ex moves, cancelling of moves into supers and/or ultras. HDR doesnt have any of that. The game is deep but if you dont learn how to tech throws because repetitive jabs and short kicks can destroy you, you wont get far in the game. By the way I suck in SFIV too. Sure I can beat those who dont understand how to get around my zoning with Sim but when you play those who truly understand the differences I mentioned in the game it can be over whelming very quickly.
I tried SFIV when it first came out for a week. I didnt touch it afterwards. Much of that was because I was just too hung up on HDR. HDR is simple, easy to pickup but probably a little harder to master depending on your character. I also didnt like how Sim was either in SFIV. It didnt help that Sim had many, many tools in HDR which all could be used and then in SFIV he seemed like a one trick pony. Anyhow SSFIV they improved him slightly. My point I am trying to make is the reason why I am giving it a chance, and like Coth’s reason for playing, is there are many people playing this game. I am also looking at the game as being different because it is. While I cant say I am fully enjoying it because I havent figured out how to use the focus attacks, and not being able to tech throws which were caused by repetitive pokes which lead into grabs the game still is good.
Let’s not forget while ST and HDR are great games they have thier faults too. I love getting hit by 3 knee bash loops from Ken players and know its coming and still cant stop it. I love getting spd in a corner by Zangief/T.Hawk and cant get out of it unless the other player messes up the loop. Oh and let’s not forget the glitch that was left in and the reasoning people have used saying leaving it in is pathetic but that is another topic another time. I love getting hit by repetitive wall dives from Vega, or getting tic bitten from Blanka, not being able to counter Honda’s sumo splash which allows a multitude of options for him once he lands especially being thrown, or how about turbo kick bison into grab or make one mistake against Bison and game over. Yeah ST/HDR was perfect.
SSFIV is a different game in its own way. Treat it that way, play it that and you’ll be fine. Take it as an opportunity to learn another game. Oh and I flip flop between both games and I have no issues adatping to either especially switching from one button to two button presses. Again if you treat it as a different game you will be fine.
IAT out.
I see it this way: SSIV is much easier to get into because of all the random bullshit and easily-spammed moves, but harder to master because of the FADC, OS’ing, tech’ing, and the depth of combos. HDR is harder to get into because of its strict inputs and precise movements, but is easier to master once you’ve gotten into it.
Yes? No?