Most characters have a crouching normal that makes Burn Kick whiff and therefore punishable, example, Guy’s c.MK, Shoto c.MK, Cody c.MK, Ibuki c.MK, Hakan Coward Crouch. If you’re complaining about Viper’s Burn Kick you simply don’t know how to fight against it. Those crouching normals don’t work ONLY if the Viper does instant cross up Burn Kick.
And yes, I know not every character has a crouching normal that does that but that’s what can make it a bad matchup. I’m sure every character has a way to deal with Burn Kicks, find it, use it and stop complaining about Viper. Why shouldn’t she do that much damage? She has to do some crazy inputs just to land her ultra or would you prefer it to be Vanilla Sagat ‘easy mode inputs’ into the same amount of damage? She deserves it, doesn’t make her badly designed or whatever.
Every character has weaknesses and every character has ways around other characters, it’s your job to find it.
Let’s not get crazy now. It’s not like her ultra itself has crazy ass inputs. In fact, it should count against her that she has so many VIABLE ways into Ultra. She can also dp trade into Ultra, DP Fadc into Ultra, Focus attack into Ultra, etc. Not only that, she also has several more options into ultra including several meterless.
I don’t think Viper’s that big of a deal, but the argument that she has to do crazy inputs for her ultra isn’t a good one. She’s a good character, not clearly the best, but definitely irritating at times.
Just because people bitch about a match-up doesn’t mean they don’t know how to fight it, guys. Let people just rant every once and awhile, and stop with the cliche “step up your game/learn the match-up” talk.
A discussion of tiers requires a discussion of gameplay. The Viper discussion can be relevant. Some of the things that I posted were not relevant and I will not continue to do that.
I said that I would not post anything else about Viper but apparently I lied . I will not criticize Viper anymore though.
Can someone post a match video that includes the successful use of crouching normals to deal with Viper’s Burn Kick?
^
This match vid is just gonna add more fuel to the fire for obvious reasons lol, but here at 1:57: [media=youtube]cQg5P43kMIw]YouTube - SSF4 Daigo Umehara [Ryu] vs Kayo Police [Viper[/media]
The problem is you have people who don’t know the matchup squawking the most.
People are free to have the opinions that they have, hell I hate fighting certain characters, but I don’t write 12 paragraph essays outlining how I am bad at street fighter, and why I hate those matchups. This is a tier list thread. Talking about a character’s viability and strengths is on topic. “I think so and so isn’t a SF character and playing against them is stupid, and people who play them are ass at this game” is not relevant to the discussion at all.
Juri has a nice cr.mk that allows her to duck under a lot of stuff because it makes her hittable box so small and close to the ground. For me Viper is 6-4 just because of this. Seriously she can’t do shit once FSE is on and OS destroys her.
Funny guy. You can rarely use a crouching normal or normal anti-air as a wake up option though. Since burn kick is used as meaty cross-up. Unless you quickstand and Viper goes for a late burn kick.
Anyone with a half brain knows how to avoid or counter her burn kick. The annoying part is figuring which way to block on wake up. Which really isn’t a matter of skill. Someone can be very good at blocking and know the Viper matchup in and out and still misjudge wich way to block. Because it’s so ambiguous. Even the Viper player can hardly predict which side he’ll end up hitting.
I don’t think that is an accurate representation of what I posted. I think that you know that what I posted consisted of points that were supported by actual arguments. Whether or not you agree with what I posted, I don’t feel that you can say that it was nonsense.
I made it known that I am not Justin Wong at the beginning of my post so that you could avoid it if you want to.
If what I wrote had no value whatsoever it would generate no discussion.
I agree with you that my criticisms of the game design associated with C. Viper do not belong in this thread and I won’t post them here anymore.
A tier discussion requires a discussion of gameplay. Lets see how well my next post corresponds with the arguments that I made earlier…
Burn Kicks That Were Not Actual Attacks: 3
0:39
0:42
0:55
Blocked Burn Kicks: 9
1:23(standing block in corner, crouch MK punish, she could have blocked this?)
2:13 (stand block, no punish)
2:53 (stand block, no punish)
2:56 (stand block, no punish)
3:15 (stand block, no punish)
1:48 (crouch block, no punish)
1:53 (crouch block, no punish)
2:09 (crouch block, no punish)
2:37 (crouch block, no punish)
Focused Burn Kicks: 1
1:20 (punish attempt was stopped by a reversal)
Avoided Burn Kicks: 6
0:45 (crouching normal, no punish, Daigo followed up with a second crouching normal that was blocked)
0:59 (crouching normal, crouch MK into hadoken punish)
1:57 (crouching normal, throw punish, no tech by Kayo)
2:44 (crouch, SRK punish, Kayo did not block)
3:18 (crouch, attempted SRK punish, Kayo blocks and wins the match, smart play by her)
3:03 (wakeup ultra, ultra punish)
Burn Kicks That Hit Daigo: 9
0:49 (psychic burn kick, no chance for Daigo to block)
1:12 (psychic burn kick, no chance for Daigo to block)
2:16 (punish burn kick by Kayo Police due to reckless spacing by Daigo)
1:04 (combo into burn kick)
2:42 (combo into burn kick)
1:14 (ambiguous cross up on wakeup)
2:48 (ambiguous cross up on wakeup)
2:27 (ambiguous cross up)
3:01 (ambiguous cross up, Daigo had no choice other than to attempt to block this one)
Conclusions based on one match (I know it’s stupid):
Ambiguous cross up burn kicks are hard to block, don’t try it.
*The best way to deal with burn kicks is to crouch. *
A crouching normal is not some magical technique that can be used to counter burn kicks, however it is useful.
Burn kicks are difficult to punish.
Wakeup ultra as always is the best move in the game.
discussion and value do not have a direct correlation with one another. Thats not only a dumb opinion to have, in the context you are saying it, it is almost arrogant. Criticism does not validate an opinion. The lack of criticism or discussion of a good opinion does not invalidate it.
Also what I posted was a summary of 4-5 people’s opinions not just yours. It’s a collectively crappy opinion.
@Vulcan Hades
Your wakeup game against other characters should be ambiguous no matter what character you are using. Using normals to counter burnkicks is how you fight her proactively, and it’s just one of the many tools that are available to deal with her.
Ken knocks a character down -> does unblockable fierce into 300 damage into a safejump or mixup
Viper knocks a character down -> does 100 damage off of a 50/50 burn kick that is you know… blockable
Simply put, Viper doesn’t really belong in a tier list (and for similar reasons, Akuma can’t, either).
If you want to force her in, she definitely can’t be where everyone keeps on putting her - “top 5” or “top 10”.
When most of the cast has a move that shuts down one of her 3 moves completely (remember, she has no normals), she gets stuck playing a seismo feint game, which is - if guessed wrong - completely punishable by a full jump-in combo.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say you’re new to the whole wake-up game/okizeme thing, because if you have to guess which way to block on wake-up, your opponent is doing his job right. You’re knocked down, you’re at a disadvantage, guess to survive. No, its not a particular skill you can train and show off on YouTube, and yes it involves making lucky guesses, but hey…
. I will not criticize Viper anymore though.