How does ex seismo cancel lose to os dp (I don´t see ryu vs viper often here, but you should be able to block)? You can control other “mixup based characters” except elfuerte, there is a footsie game even against abel. Viper shits on fundamentals and mind games because the guessing never stops regardless of spacing or momentum. Don´t know if we are playing different games but whatever.
^
OS DP beats EX Seismo because it actually hits her before she has time to block even if she feints. The rest of your post, I don’t agree with at all, as well as the majority of what people are saying about Viper, but whatever, it’s not like I’m going to change anyone’s opinion about the character anyway so I’m not going to argue.
is this really that important? most characters have to block after being knocked down, viper isn’t an exception
If C. Viper’s gameplay was an accurate representation of the Street Fighter series I would have stopped playing a long time ago.
Viper’s mixup is the result of bad programming and game design. It has nothing to do with Street Fighter.
Right, it’s not like SF’s combo system is based around what used to be a bug.
How is viper badly programmed other than her wakeup hitbox? I’m pretty sure for the most part all of her stuff works as the designers intended it to. I mean what are her bad programming quirks? She’s easy to unblockable and sometimes people fall out of her ultra that has the worst recovery of any move in the game?
Her character design philosophy is to not be traditional, she’s supposed to be something different, and an alternative to traditional SF gameplay. She’s something new in a sea of bland rehashes and boring archetypes. How is that bad game design? She’s exactly what Capcom wanted, someone who breaks the mold. She does so well enough to make people mad about it, I consider that a smashing success.
First off let may this…I am bad at fighting games. I am old and I know what my skill level is. You can take my opinion for what it is worth (which is not a lot). Consider this to be scrub level opinions. You can respond accordingly.
I think that there is a lack of consistency in the way that the Burning Kick hitbox makes contact with the opposing character (especially predicting the side that it will hit on). I could be completely wrong about this. If you are telling me that you can predict it then I will accept that I am wrong.
I am honestly questioning whether or not the developers can predict how it will behave with consistency. At times it seems like the game is confused by it. You can see your character experience frames of animation that occur without a proper transition due to the Burn Kick. I cannot name another move in the game that does as frequently.
There are times that I get hit by it and want to stop and see a replay because I can’t believe that it was a cross up. My understanding of where it will hit doesn’t seem to be increasing the more that I get hit by it. I cannot name another cross up in this game that I can say the same thing for.
I accept that ambiguous cross ups exist in fighting games but the Burning Kick is approaching something nonsensical. It literally makes the game look like it is broken at times.
Other problems I have with the character:
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Safe offense for no reason other than that I pressed a button whenever I wanted to. Instead of being safe because I spaced it properly, it’s safe because I was able to execute it.
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Animations associated with special moves that cause me to be unable to determine how far away she is from my character when she lands
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Excessive invincibility frames on EX Seismo Hammer when she basically always has meter. This problem is made worse by the fact that so much of what she can do is built in safe (not dependent on spacing).
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Combo into ultra from hell.
I have never not wanted to play Street Fighter. It’s not boring. Put Viper in a different game and let me play Street Fighter please.
C.viper is a whore
the facing the wrong direction/weird animation stuff isn’t a viper exclusive. Happens with a lot of characters. Also burn kicks aren’t that hard to block, j.hk is worse because it leads to more damage.
Nothing else you mentioned is actually a programming issue.
- What is “safe” offensive. Plus or neutral frames on block? that isn’t the only determination if offense is safe.
- no idea what this means
- learn how to counter it? Your character has an option select to deal with it and it can be baited, it’s your fault for not being able to do so
- block low
But yeah overall “I am bad at this game and that makes this character stupid IMO” is not really a good reason for complaining especially when you aren’t doing things that you can be doing. I’m not the best player, but I try to play my best in regards to my executional limits by knowing my character well, and by gameplanning against things I don’t understand/are giving me difficulty.
A good viper player should stomp you if you aren’t good at this game, thats her executing her gameplan, and you not understanding, and not attempting to understand and thus losing.
Viper’s Burning Kick is very ambiguous, no doubt. Though that is the point of the move. But unless she’s doing it in a combo, or she’s able to tag a juggle into Super/Ultra off it, it’s not going to hurt too much. Of course, it’s dealing with the potential mix-up afterwards, but there’s no set defence for that, Viper feeds off stuff like that anyway. You just have to be tight when it comes to your defence. You won’t be able to defend everything, but it’ll help.
As for defending against BKs in general, aside from correct blocking, usually a good way to deal with them is to use something that’ll lower your hitbox, like Ryu’s cr.mk and go under it, avoiding the move completely. Some forms of BKs you might not be able to, like instant cross-up BKs.
Viper does have safe specials like light Thunder Knuckle and Burning Kick, this is to compensate that her normals aren’t hot and she has no real tight blockstrings, apart from st.lkx2. And though her specials are safe, stuff like her Thunder Knuckles actually produce a small disadvantage on block, so it’s not like she can lock you down with them repeatedly. Unless spaced just outside your usual normals range, you can hit her out of her next attack.
I don’t really understand what you mean about her specials making you unable to determine where she is in relation to your character.
EX Seismo doesn’t have as much invincibility as you think. It’s invincibility is at the start-up and ends when she pounds the ground. She can be hit and grabbed out of it if timed right, that’s why certain characters like Chun can low meaty her on wake-up, which beats out a good amount of her reversals. In a straight reversal situation, she’s better off feinting it since the move is also not that fast.
And yes, Viper does have very good comeback potential with her Ultra. The funny thing is, BKs and L and M Thunder Knuckle had their frame advantages on block nerfed for SSF4.
There is no move in the game that causes animation inconsistencies to occur more than that move does. Bad programming, not necessarily relevant to game play. If the developers can tell me with consistency that they know which side it will hit on then I will accept that it is not a programming issue. Let me say it like this:
The move is so ambiguous that the source code can’t understand it.
I will accept that you are being honest here and that it is my own problem. I still see no improvement in my ability to block it as I continue to be hit by it. I cannot say the same for any other cross up in the game.
Her offense is safe to due the frame data associated with her specials. It’s built in safe, not dependent on spacing. It’s game design.
I have difficulty determining whether or not she is within throw distance after a whiffed Burn Kick due to the animation. I have difficulty determining where she is after she gets knocked out of the start of an attempted combo into ultra. It actually takes me a moment to determine if it even hit or not. This is all due to the animation. I will accept that it is my own problem if no one else agrees.
The combination of frame data, animations, and excessively invincibility frames resulting in a scenario where the response is to input an option select and allow the game to decide what should happen isn’t appealing to me. This is a scrub opinion, a high level player would accept this scenario, I accept that I am wrong. I will not change my opinion on this though.
When can I press a button?
But I am bad at every game. I do not feel this way about any other character in a Street Fighter game. It’s not even close for me.
My reaction to a normal Street Fighter match:
My execution is inconsistent, my reactions are slow, my decision making is bad, I get out played, I lose…
My reaction to a C. Viper match:
What the fuck was that?
Why is a character that has no normals winning a Street Fighter match?
Because she was built to be different from the standard SF character in order to offer a wider array of playstyles?
There’s nothing wrong with Viper, period. Hell she’s not even top tier I don’t know what the fuck you’re crying about, she has as many massive flaws as she does shit that makes you go “WTF?!”.
Burn kick ambiguous crossups are a little lame, I’ll give you that, but it’s not game breaking nor is it anything to cry about.
Is it unfair to say that the main reasons that character wins matches are frame data and confusion?
viper works as intended. dosent mean its good for streetfighter tho. just my opinion
i heavily disagree with the statement of viper players not being able to win with different characters. for example wolfkrone plays hella random with viper at times, but he actually has a really strong understanding of sf fundamentals.
i’ve seen him play viper in a completely solid non random fashion, without a bunch of BK’s, and all blocking and teching throws. he just knows that against other high level players, vipers fundamentals are lacking, and the only way to even it up is to trick his opponent by doing what you think he wouldnt. hes also got a few very solid alts. he just likes viper
Ummm…She’s def. top tier. Character to get the least amount of nerfs transitioning from SF4 to SSF4 to AE. Can stun you in two or three guesses. Massive comeback potential. Ambiguous cross-ups. Meterless ultra setups. Does massive damage too. Decent footsies, average wake up game. The burn kicks aren’t what get you, it’s her super jump cross RH into a billion damage and stun that destroy you, when you expect the burn kick.
If Viper had decent footsies she’d be the best character in the game.
Viper’s normals are good, they’re just a little slower than average. They’re nothing like Dan’s, who feel like his limbs are made of Crisco.
Besides after the frame advantage of aerial Burn Kicks, it doesn’t even matter if her normals are slow. Watch some high-level Viper play with Wolfkrone, Latif, and Jayce.
Man, I hope LainySky doesn’t read this post.
viper’s normals suck, they’re probably the worst except el fuerte - however I do remember some beat by contest qualifier where kindev. fucked momochi up with viper’s c.hp lol
her focus is also not that good, not the worst but still not great
her strength is in mixups/damage not her wake up options(which are decent) or her footsies (which suck)
It depends on where you set the bar for “bad normals”. For what they need to do, Viper’s normals aren’t that bad. From mid range she doesn’t need her normals. She waits for you to whiff something then flies in with a Burn Kick, from there she has frame advantage or the knockdown she needs.
Once she has that frame advantage, slowness gets nullified out of the balance equation because her buttons will always beat yours. If you can keep people at bay with a well placed seismo feint game and her completely safe MP thunder knuckle, does it really matter that you don’t have Ryu’s cr.MK? Absolutely not.