She can do nj. instant air Tsurugi, into a combo for very good damage, so that is one of the deterrents. If I get hit by this once I stop trying to meaty throw her.
Hakan has ex command throw when he’s oiled+U1, which are pretty big deterrents, though yeah he’s probably one of the best people to do this to in the game.
Who meaty throws gief? If you mess up you might lose the match right there. I’ve also had very inconsistent results doing meaty throws against him.
would you do a wakeup drill with dhalsim? wakeup cs.mk with rose? wakeup divekick with yun? because those are all equally risky. wakeup tsrugi can really reward you for a good read but if they do literally anything else you eat shit. i think it’s fair to call it a very high risk escape maneuver.
i don’t think hakan’s ex oil rocket is throw invincible, oiled or not (i could be wrong - i believe that oiled ex dive is, however). u1 requires him to have … well, u1.
and just because you don’t generally meaty throw gief doesn’t mean it’s not a strong option on the offensive against him. again the facts are right there in the game - he doesn’t have a throw invincible move outside of U1 so he by definition must do something very risky to avoid it.
as for late teching, well, yeah. but every character in the game can do it, so it’s sort of irrelevant when talking about what makes so-and-so character’s wakeup options better or worse in relation to the rest of the cast.
all jump cancels are throw immune, and gief has a very very good one not to mention the whole 1 frame window to perfectly meaty throw him and not get hit by spd. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but it probably isn’t the wisest thing to do.
speaking of which couldn’t makoto just do jc ex oroshi?
The people who complained about the game being defensive weren’t necessarily the same people complaining about makoto. You can’t just lump the opinions of a group of people together and then point out the contradictions of opposing opinions in the group like it means something. Also, maybe they just have an issue with specific style of offensive tools she has. She’s like Abel in that she’s based hur dee dur durrrr dice roll guessing. Those types of characters are generally thought of as fairly braindead and for a good reason.
jump cancels are throw immune for the few pre-jump frames you have before you press a button and the move goes into startup. you remain hittable and have no special properties aside from being unthrowable. you COULD prejump cancel an ex oroshi, but you could also just pre-jump cancel a hayate or a command grab or anything else and the result would be the same. if you’re already committed to being strike-vulnerable on wakeup and want to beat a throw for maximum damage you just tsrugi and pray for the best.
a lot of the game’s offense against characters with slow reversals relies on using meaty-ing jabs with only 2 active frames, so being able to meaty throw isn’t really that different (or difficult). again, if you pre-jump cancel an invincible move as a reversal (say, lariat) you are NOT invincible on wakeup. you forsake strike invincibility for throw invincibility. i’ve only ever seen it really used in practice against heavily telegraphed throws like meaty propeller tortilla.
I know that meaties aren’t difficult in this game, haha, I’ve come up with multiple setups for my character.
Also you don’t really trade invulnerabilities overall they just don’t overlap I think for except 1 frame(though it might be 0). since you are delaying the reversal by jcing you aren’t invincible during the prejump frames obviously, but aren’t throwable, but then right after that you are invincible.
So if I attempted to throw you the first frame you got up with the first active frame of my throw, I would be able to jab you instead, but if I did something slower, say ryu’s low forward(5 frames) that wasn’t truly meaty, you would have entered invincibility frames for the actual move at this time, and the low forward would pass right through.
I guess jc something already invincible would work best in a situation where your opponent had frame advantage but not enough to meaty you.
i’m not quite sure what you’re getting at with low forward being slower than a jab. in a wakeup situation either you get hit by a meaty throw or a meaty attack. it doesn’t matter how long the throw or attack take to get out, since i’m knocked down anyways. the active frames just have to overlap with my first wakeup frame.
to reiterate:
if makoto does a wakeup ex oroshi it beats the hit (sometimes ?) and loses to the throw.
if makoto does a wakeup PJC ex oroshi she beats the throw and loses to the hit. [functionally, you trade invulnerabilities on the frame that matters - your first wakeup frame.]
if makoto does wakeup jump -> tsrugi, she beats the throw and loses to the hit ? but also does much more damage than a PJC ex oroshi.
so really, PJC’ing doesn’t really benefit her that much. tsrugi beats or loses to the same things as any PJF cancelled special she can do, and it provides a higher reward. i know we’re way off on a tangent here but the takeaway is that to BEAT a throw (not avoid, as in backdashing or late teching) on her wakeup, she must forsake her ability to beat a strike and jump. the majority of characters in the game don’t have to deal with this mixup to the same degree because their reversals are designed to beat both strikes and throws.
no no I got it, but what I’m saying if some used a meaty setup that resulted in a perfectly meaty throw, a slower attack would in fact not be truly meaty which would allow the invincibility frames to be active before the attack hit.
I get it that the frames don’t overlap, but on a telegraphed setup, or in a non knockdown pressure situation you might be able to get a little mileage out of it.
My brain was moving faster than the discussion, you are right it doesn’t really help her wakeup at all.
Abel isn’t nearly as free to proper zoning as Makoto is though. And her mixup isn’t nearly as ambiguous as Abel’s. One wrong guess from Makoto and you’re getting blown up.
I wasn’t commenting on either characters ability to get in or how good they are in general, rather that they are primarily mix up characters and that mix up characters are among the most braindead.
fuerte is widely considered to be the most braindead character in the game because all you do is randomly splash/tortilla till the other person dies.(I don’t actually believe this)
It’s not true. His wake up game is the most brain dead. In that regard though it takes a good fuerte to compete at a high level and even then the players arent randomly splashing, I’m pretty sure they know what they are doing. Random splashing is a online fuerte thing.
The “I don’t actually believe this” part seems to have been ignored.
I was saying that would be the counterargument that people use as to why fuerte is braindead because that is what they say every time the “braindead character argument” is brought up.