Your probably right, all her links always came easy for me for some reason I guess…specially considering I’m usually trash with one framers online.
Rose was pretty awesome in Super IMO and has always been a relatively strong character in almost every game she’s in. U2 nerf was warranted but not really much of a game changer as much has her nerfed pokes which just had stupid hitboxes that stopped everything. Much like Guile in AE (and maybe Deejay in Super) she’s become a character who relies almost completely on her fundamentals to keep her viable whereas so many others have blatantly overpowering advantages vs. a lot of the returning cast.
Capcom really started to get a better mix of balance between defensive and offensive playstyles in Super (if Makoto’s the worst in the game she’s one of the best “worst” characters ever) and have seemingly gone in a parallel direction to Vanilla with AE in that they’re skewing the game completely to one playstyle again, only the opposite (being offensive). Perhaps moreso than in Vanilla there’s a much more iron-clad tier here where there’s a handful of characters already looking to be head-and-shoulders better than everyone else in the game right now, whereas Super’s “top” tier has 10+ characters in it with the rest being all able to win consistently in the right hands.
Real problem with AE? Capcom listens too much to the scrubs who bitch about chars they can’t personally win against and not enough about real, needed gameplay changes to correct fundamental flaws in 4’s engine.
300 Damage from 420 is a big damage nerf, but it’ll still be easy to combo into (Much how Balrog’s ultra does ass damage when combo’d into but it’s still a great ultra)
Or use as a tool to scare your opponent from throwing a fireball from too close, even with 2 extra startup frames.
As far as hurting viability, not really. Just alter your ultra input to a different arc in their jump. They’ll still get hit. Anti-Fireball it’ll still work against characters with average recovery (All shotos and Sagat) but, you just need to be a bit closer. Using it against another Guile or Dee Jay (two best fireball recovery characters in the game) is gonna be useless, though.
at least I think so. It makes sense in my head.
Gridman I don’t really get why you wanna drag everyone down to some base level. I want as much character variety as I can get, and that means in part that I want some characters to have crappy defensive options and others to have awesome ones. So yeah, Vega doesn’t have good defensive options while Rose with SSF4 bono did… and that’s fine. To the extent that Vega wasn’t as good as Rose etc (and since my only Vega experience is with Tatsu, I tend to think he’s a fine character), I wanted Capcom to balance the two characters by buffing Rose in a way that would keep the uniqueness of his SSF4 incarnation, ie helping his mid range game and offense, not by nerfing Rose in a way that would lessen the uniqueness of her SSF4 incarnation. But it seems like you’re angry that Rose had this great option when other characters didn’t, and your solution would have been the same kind of nerf in character strength and gameplay variety that Capcom went for. Personally I think that’s a bad answer.
Rose’s U2 would have been better as a Super Combo.
I like to think I’m a decent Guile player, and comboing into U2 without a trade Short FK, ie FADC from FK is both risky, impractical in match play and highly situational. It’s far more worth it to just combo BnB xx Short Super > juggle U2 since you get the majority of the SH damage anyways, at least for me. Chun-Li’s U2 does identical damage and has limitless ways to combo into it via links, juggles and frametraps whereas Guile has ONE reliable way to do it and it involves him possibly losing two EX bars for nothing. Easy to combo? Not even close compared to other characters with braindead DP FADC herp derps for 400+. It was jumpable on startup since day one and making it slower and less reliable means we’re back to the risk/reward of U1 in most matchups, especially now that Guile’s core game of defense is an overall weakness in AE and lessened damage potential makes it just as much an uphill battle as Vanilla was at times.
Actually at 300 damage I’m really questioning whether many Guile players will even feel it’s worth the 2 bars it costs to combo into unless they know it’s gonna get them the ko.
Flash kick fadc u2 means u2 is going to be doing 80% damage at best, and with MAX revenge meter, the u2 is adding 240 damage… With less than maximum meter, that number is going to go down pretty fast. Worth it? Eh.
Imagine the pitiful damage it will do, for example, after a cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.mp xx flash kick FADC u2 with 50% ultra meter. Like, 50 damage.
Maybe because I play Dee Jay and he can’t combo into U1 without being highly situational, or U2 unless it’s in the corner (EX Machine Gun Upper > Dash > U2 is stupid, ridiculous hard).
I think Guile having threeish ways (Two being decently viable) beats some other character’s options of one or even none.
I feel bad for DJ players in Super because if you don’t spend hours in training mode getting EX-MGU -> Dash/walk -> U2, then he probably has the single worst set of Ultras in the game. Of course, this is fixed in AE, so I hear, but SSF4 DJ? Yuck.
It’s sort of an option with Guile’s FK FADC U2, but I’d rather save meter for an for the guaranteed comboability of a 300+ dmg Super that can combo into both Ultras (U1 now being the only one to use, really) vs. the risk and high technical finesse to use FADC > U2. It’s just not the smartest or most reliable option available.
I agree with Grid. Rose is supposed to be about gdlk pokes and spacing, not derp derp SFIV reversals. She never had any real reversals in any SF game before so why now? Characters like Ibuki had no choice put to put themselves into a throw mix up off a safe jump in a matchup she already had little control over just to bait out the U2 (where she receives it off a knockdown). Which a smart Rose will just sit there on block and then force u into a braindead mix up of throw/poke/activate u2 later any way. Unless u get pushed into the corner Rose isn’t totally free on wake up. If you’re smart and make good reads she still has options. She’s only fucked really if you mess up totally with her spacing which is pretty much ur fault since she has a very strong poke/spacing game and is pretty much unable to be focused at all. Which means if you’re using a character with slow walk speed and sub par footsies Rose pretty much leaves u with like one or 2 things to fight her with. Her U2 will still have a lot of offensive uses especially when she has super stocked as well.
I really dont see what’s so interesting about an ultra thats strongest point is being a double sided 5 frame DP that’s safe on block. It just makes it so 80 percent of the time that’s all you’re going to be using it for and not something actually interesting to the game. It just limits offense more than necessary. The ultra still has quite a few offensive uses that will still be used in some matchups. ** Everybody that was as good as Rose or better got nerfed with little to no buffs in AE so it’s kinda speculation for now to say that the nerfs directly make her that much worse.** Of course for the laughable exception of better than Vanilla Sagat Fei Long LOL.
Guile’s U2 was more than likely changed so people have a reason to use U1 again. With SH there was maybe like what…1 or 2 matchups that U1 was worth using in? The damage is nerfed in a way so that it can still be used as an ultra fireball to give him an edge in fireball war matchups but then in other matchups he wont just have this 400 plus damage super versatile, relatively safe on block tool he can just whip out with a bit of charge execution. It’s obvious they want Guile to back to playing more like traditional normals and booms Guile and not Sonic Hurricane landing for solid damage twice a round in every matchup Guile.
I was just about to say the same thing. The fact that by the act of HURTING her, you’re directly giving her such a powerful tool, is completely retarded. I don’t care what anyone says. And yes, I realize every character gets their Ultra “for free” in this game. But the difference is, most every other character has to be GIVEN a chance to use their Ultra through the opponent’s mistakes. Whether it be throwing an unsafe fireball, jumping when you shouldn’t have, or not respecting the two EX meters you’ve got. Kind of different from Rose just being able to throw it out whenever she damn well feels like it, and pretty much always being able to reap some sort of benefit out of it whether it be damage, momentum shift, etc.
if her u2 was a super she’d lose a lot of the combo options with it.
To be fair, she’d probably gain a ton too:
cr. mp xx drill xx super (orbs) xx Illusion Spark (or whatever U1 is called).
Im not “angry.” The bitching from rose players is generally unjustified since most of them cant do anything with the character whether they have u2 or not. Next to Art, Louffy, and Sako how many roses really stand out? Yet when u2 gets brought up the defenders and rose players and people who say how awful rose gets rushed down come out of the woodwork. Like I said, when do you see a character that generally is not strong in rushing down completely rushing the shit out of rose when she doesnt have u2? The characters that do, (rufus, abel, seth, etc etc) have that same potential and generally do that against the rest of the cast as it is.
U2 is completely braindead and with its no risk factor removed, all i hear is people saying how its the end of rose and she has no future and is ass and all that nonsense. Just put into perspective that Rose players arent the only ones without a “reversal” now. EX Soul Spiral can be safe jumped sure and its slow yadda yadda yadda. I simply pointed to vega because that character has NEVER had a reversal until super in which his u2 was safejumpable and could actually be punished if you did safe jump it. Even HIS u2 got nerfed but yet when the talk of nerfs and ultra nerfs and all that jazz comes up, the first players out of the gate to complain are rose players. Again like theres some self-entitlement. Like they DESERVE that Ultra 2 or something. Clearly not the case.
I never had a problem with getting hit / not getting hit by u2. Did I get hit by it sometimes? Absolutely. When I was more careful could I safe jump it consistently? Absolutely. Thats not even the point. The problem is that it poses little to no risk and is an absolute enormous momentum changer that no other character has, let alone a character with her great tools and move set. Why does she deserve such a ridiculous ultra when characters like Vega are still getting the shaft? Im only mentioning Vega cause hes the first character that comes to mind thats in much worse shape than Rose (and I can relate and dick around with vega from time to time).
I agree with the last couple of posts.
I think some people are looking at Roses U2 objectively as a special move in itself and forgetting that it is an Ultra. By design, the whole Ultra Combo concept is to make the match more tense when one person has a big life lead because it means the other person is becoming increasingly able to make a comeback should the leading person make a mistake. Nearly every single Ultra carries some risk of executing and therefore the moment of activation must be carefully considered.
The rule of thumb is that because Ultras are there for comeback potential and aren’t earned like Super Meter, they should be obviously punishable either on startup, or after it whiffs so people don’t abuse them as utility moves by activating them at anytime they feel like then going from there. 99% of the time an Ultra whiffs, it either leads to a neutral situation or a very bad situation for the whiffer (see: Guile U1 on whiff). Juri is an exception with Feng Shui Engine, however she does not become untouchable and you can still land a clean knockdown to drain her timer.
Rose broke the Ultra rule by having a basically unpunishable Ultra that was safe to activate at almost anytime. It stopped the opponents match momentum in ways no Ultra could even come close to. It’s the only Ultra that carries the additional properties of a utilitarian special in that Rose gets an entirely new and useful Tool every time she has enough gauge. Her U2 actually fits the description of a Super more so than an Ultra.
I’m all for character uniqueness and everything but clearly Capcom saw, un-nerfed, her U2 did not serve the same function as every other Ultra in the game and that it had this extra property that made it a tool in itself. It broke the Ultra mold and had to be given the aspect of risk in order to bring it back in-line with the rest of the system. Of course by doing so, suddenly U2 feels kinda crappy, but I think Capcom made the right decision to nerf it in the way they did.
she had a gdlk alpha counter as a reversal for every game shes in. if you think people are bitching about how safe u2 is, i guarantee they’ll cry once they give that back to her.
i guess people dont remember how shitty vanilla rose was and how badly she gets rushed down by viper. u2 changed this around. how many characters does she beat in super? probably like 2-3. everything else is 5-5.
with ssf4ae being rushdown centric, she’ll have an even harder time dealing with those characters with her sub-par reversals.
and her u2 nerf is only half the picture. lets not forget they nerfed her normals too, which is pretty much the core of her game play.
Who doesnt viper rush down besides rufus bison and blanka?
And why even mention alpha counters…?