broken > god tier > S tier sagat was the best in vanilla, everyone knows it, get over it, you don’t even have to put up with it anymore, blah blah.
does anyone else think bison has the potential to be top 5 here? I know he doesn’t exactly destroy anyone but…I’m pretty sure he’ll at least do well vs. the top tier + his worst matchups like guile, honda (abel??) all got nerfed.
advantage vs. fei long, shotos, rufus, possible advantage vs. twins (???) means he could end up being just as strong as in super if not better despite the nerfs to s.hk and u2. as always his lack of “comeback” factor will come up, but I think he has the tools to beat or go even with all but a handful of characters.
also I think dhalsim, ibuki, claw and blanka will all be characters who will see overall improvements due to nerfs to other characters (rufus, cammy, abel, honda) Ken also continues to get stronger due to changes in the overall “flow” of SF4 imo
Having the odds stacked against you doesn’t mean you can’t win. Sagat is strong, not invincible. Players can still be outplayed. I don’t see how bringing up 1 person who is very skilled at fighting Sagat does anything to support the idea that Sagat is not the strongest character by at least a small margin. I’m not really sure why you’re trying so vigorously to persuade everyone that Sagat was not notably stronger than a significant number of other characters in Vanilla even though the majority of the SF4 community seems to think so.
You say that Vanilla Sagat vs Vanilla Guile is a 5-5 matchup? Seriously? Have you actually played as Guile vs a good Sagat? If you can’t see that the odds are stacked in Sagat’s favor then I don’t know what to say. If Guile’s strongest playstyle is defense and his weakest is offense, then what happens when you force him to play his weakness? That is exactly what Sagat does because his fireball game eclipses Guile’s own while still having superior damage output, health, and tools.
If neither character had Ultras, Sagat would arguably still have a marginal advantage over Guile, but the fact remains that they do have Ultras and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that Sagat’s is superior to Guile’s in almost every way shape and form.
Sagat’s Ultra: High damage, goes through fireballs, quarter circle motion, can be combo’d into easily off a FADC or trade
Guile’s Ultra: Lack luster damage, doesn’t go through fireballs, motion cannot be buffered, requires down-back charge, can only be combo’d from a focus crumple or after Super for minimal damage.
In simple terms for the Sagat vs Guile matchup: Sagat has an Ultra. Guile does not.
I never claimed to be a good Guile nor did I comment on the level of Sagats that I face. However based on observation, analysis, the opinions of experienced professionals and tournament commentary, I think it’s fair to say that the general consensus towards the notion of Vanilla Sagat vs Vanilla Guile being a 5-5 matchup is BULLSHIT. No OFFENCE.
ryu got c.mk hitbox nerfed, f+HP damage reduction, I don’t think he got anything major unless s.mp cancel proves useful somehow. Bison is already at a slight advantage vs. ryu - ryu might do slightly better now since bison has to charge to use U2 now - but I’m sure bison still takes it on paper.
nerfs to rufus U2 should help, I know I’ve seen justin wong use it to punish things like bison’s wake up devil’s reverse or dhalsim jumpbacks - he still has U1 of course but he’s lost the ability to punish a lot of things now.
edit:
hrm, my bad then, I don’t know why I was under the impression he got nerfed really hard for some reason. didn’t they change some properties on soulless? if all he got was a tone-down I’m sure he’ll end up being strong too.
I dont know of how any other way to put this , again I know sagat was the best in vanilla , I just said he wasnt broken like alot of scrubs keep saying. ( half screen 600 damage uppercut yo) etc.
But yeah, I dunno how to tell u this man but we can theory fight all day on here about that match up , all in all , 5/5 sagat v guile in vanilla , maybe the SLIGHTEST tiniest favour to sagat , but not enough to make it 6/4 no way in hell.
In ssf4 , this is switched round , with the advantage slightly for guile .again im being VERY very favourable here for sagat , since his nerfs like low ts nerf a long with guiles backfist and ultra buffs and sonic boom buffs and… yeah all of guiles buffs. makes this match up way harder. Again not enough to call it 6/4 but when u play the match u definately feel the disadvantage . My thoughts on AE? probably back to vanilla , exact same thing but slightly in gats favour now thanks to guiles god buffs getting toned down. Its really as simple as that , but yeah off topic now , guive v sagat has been talked about to death , and its pretty much decided at 5/5. I can sence some saltiness though , apologies if i offended u but your guile is just not good enough if u feel the need to write all that to prove your point?
Theory Fighter IV, WHO WILL COME OUT ON TOP?! FIGHT!
I agree that it actually feels pretty fair in AE with maybe a tiny advantage to Sagat. Guile has a usable Ultra 2 and better charge time, it’s not such an uphill climb as Vanilla. Guile’s meter nerf keeps the fireball war slightly in Sagat’s favor while Guile doesn’t have the damage output now to have the match-up swung in his favor so there’s really nothing much to complain about. Least I haven’t lost to Sagat’s now thinking ‘zomfg that was bullshit’, it just feels like you got out played and it’s usually due to some obvious mistake that you made yourself.
Soulless got a 10% damage reduction too iirc. That’s the only one I’m really upset about, but doing 560 in vanilla was too much… 500 in Super was still pretty strong… 450 seems a little bit more fair considering how awesome an ultra it is. His normal combos still do the same amount of damage so he can still really put the hurt on people, and f+mk and TT still work the same way, so he’s still good to go.
his big problem in AE is going to be bad matchups with all the top tiers…
the roll nerf just took a few invincibility frames away from the end of it to make it easier to punish (right now there is only 1 vulnerable frame). they didn’t make it pause longer at the end as far as I know so it’ll still be tough to get out of Abel’s ambiguous roll mixups after you get knocked down
yeah exactly man…glad u agree . I think with the addition of yun , yang , evil ryu , oni akuma, fei to an extent… vanilla sagat and ssf4 guile could of probably co existed in this game with no big disadvantages , theres bigger better characters to worry about now I guess, too bad they gave guile the vanilla sagat treatment :(. I feel he would of had good match ups against the twins if he stayed the same.
yeah mixups will be the same but it won’t be usable as a mobility tool so much. I have terrible timing on that one frame and I don’t know how much I’ve been punished for missing it. I’m terrible vs. Abel though.
You seem to think you’re quite the skilled player don’t you? How can you talk about high match-ups yourself anyway? Last time I checked your Sagat got destroyed three times by my secondary C.viper, no offense or anything but your attitude is just ridiculous. Oh hey let’s not talk about match-ups because no one here is really high level except a select few heh. Get off your high horse, calling someone out who’s obviously being humble is retarded and above all very inane.
Sorry for this guys, but this guy is just ridiculously annoying and an eyesore to an otherwise nice discussion topic with substance. Which I happen to enjoy reading untill this bullshit came along.
…sigh. I admit defeat . Im gone . another scrub trying to talk to me like they know something or know me . spartan go back to neo empire with the other scrubs and take your day 1 fei long with you.
good day to you sirs , life trolls , scrubs , and the rare normal decent players.
I’m a totally neutral party, but who are you? I’m just curious. All your posts make it seem like you are someone we should all know. So I ask, in the most sincere possible way, who are you?
You are putting down a lot of people and their gameplay so I’m just curious what yours looks like. You are telling people to come to Europe so you can get free money so I’m just curious if you go to Evo. How do you do there? The way you talk makes it seem like everyone should know who you are. So?
Or is this just another, look at me, I’m on the internets.
I never claimed to be anyone or for people to " look at me " . But I know exactly who i am and i dont care who knows me. but when people are spouting bullshit and their sole reason for their inspiration to start talking was " yo i beat u on psn ranked 6 months ago man thats bullshit! " im gonna retaliate.
Also if u actually read my posts above , im just counter arguing my main , and explaining guile v sagat was even .
look we could do this forever man. who are you? who is anyone here?! who am i!??!?!