SSF4 Tier List Thread REBOOT Super + AE (Updated: 02-01-09)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
801

My bad, I paraphrased. Here’s one of your previous posts:

So, he’s top tier, but his vortex is “medium risk/medium reward” since you can wake-up Ultra him (disregarding the fact that he has about 6-7 options).

Lk scissors do 90 damage on hit (best case scenario; if only the second hit hits, does 30 damage; naked scissors gets stuffed by jab-hands). Ex-headbutt does 40 chip on block (Beats every single one of Bison’s moves, unpunishable, unstuffable). If I am pressuring Honda, I am putting myself at risk to do half the damage he gets for chipping me for free. If he hits me with ex-headbutt I eat 160 damage (or eat what? 200 counterhit damage?). That’d be roughly… 8-10 lk scissors on block? Risk/reward is really disproportionate.

Who cares if Bison can punish hp Headbutt? Name one good Honda that even uses that move more than like once a match (if that!).

I could care less if people turtle. The problem is that the game caters to turtles. If YOU enjoy playing boring matches, then good for you, but the fact is that Capcom obviously decided it wasn’t in everyone’s best interests to continue doing that so they nerfed all of the defensive characters. And the only character that I play that is necessarily a turtle character is Blanka (1 out of 4) so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Deejay isn’t a turtle. Bison isn’t a turtle. Balrog can be a turtle, but it’s not like I’m going to win matches staying at full screen, so I’d rather RTSD.

802

I heard Sagat is one means to trash them up. From a reliable source.

803

…yet I never said he’s garbage…i said he’s top tier material. Probably not top 5 in SSF4 tho. I still stand by that statement…and mago and daigo seem to agree with me based on their SSF4 (not AE) tier lists, and I honestly give them more credit than you or Sharin who probably gets owned by chocolillo all the time (like me, lol) and blames it on the character. Whatever…

I HATE turtle characters and i’d rather play pokemon than a turtle character in a street fighter game…that’s why I play akuma/rog/cammy and never even hold d/b with rog except when comboing. In fact that’s one of my major SF4 problems, I have ZERO patience, even with a heavy life lead I still attack and often end up eating damage i could have easily avoided.

That’s why i’m looking forward to AE. I was just relpying to the fact that you admittedly say you’re a turtle, yet you hate playing against turtles and want a more offensive game. wtf??

804

Yo…you’re just a hater…and he likes the challenge. What’s your problem.

805

I dont blame anyones character, chocolo himself says akuma is top tier just like tokido does, and allioune too. Each one with his opinion i guess lol.

Whatever, i dont want to go back to the akuma topic but people are pretending turtle characters are the best in super when the top tiers are rushdown and defensive characters arent winning anything with the exception of filipinochamp.

806

It’s like if I said that i love to rush down because that’s my play style but at the same time I want a more defensive based game and whine because playing AGAINST rush down characters bores me.

Wow, that makes sense.

807

i’m not arguing that he’s top tier, i’m just saying that he’s not the best.

The tournament argument only works that much, tournaments are won by players, not entirely by characters. It’s like saying “akuma sucks because he never wins any major tournaments” (not even tokido does…). See where i’m going?
It’s not like cammy won any majors, yet she’s top tier.

808

I don’t really see how things will have improved in AE… So the Bison/Honda MU won’t be as bad anymore because the risk:reward ratio has been tweaked to even things out. But what about the alleged top tiers? Isn’t Bison going to have to play keep away against the twins? Makoto? The MU against Deejay/Dudley might just get worse, Guile will be just as bad… Cammy should be less of an annoyance if she’s required to play a more grounded game, but her risk:reward is still going to be vastly in her favor if she gets close… You’re still not going to RTSD against a Zangief. They might be less dangerous, but your gameplan isn’t going to change much. Overall, I don’t see what here is hinting at the fact that Bison will be able to rushdown more… Bison wasn’t given tools that make other mix-up oriented characters so dominant. He’ll still have to zone out most of the cast. So basically, you’ll be enjoying being on the receiving end of it all…

809

This… is right on. I find it funny how almost every SF player understands this dynamic and generally supports this type of game play design (game that offer both defensive/offensive options). Yet the designers totally overlook it. SF is not KOF.

810

Yo don’t hate on Pokemon. That shit’s too legit to quit.

From what I’ve played in AE, it’s much easier rushing down the top tiers in this game than in SSF4. Yun’s easily safejumped, I don’t know about Yang. Bison deals with dive kick characters fairly well. Makoto and DeeJay are fairly easy to RTSD. Dudley/Gief you’ll still have to zone, but I actually have a good time playing those sorts of characters.

811

Its not that easy though, look how relatively minor some of the changes are in AE and the effect they’ve had. Fei Long got a few minor buffs and now everyone’s putting him in S Tier. Same with Sagat, he really didn’t get a hell of a lot back but people are saying he’s good again.

I’ve thought of this before myself but obviously there’s a reason why they can’t just leave good charcters as they are and bring everyone else up a level. Can’t think of what mind you…

812

My question is, would Claw have been overpowered if they had just buffed him and not nerfed anything?

813

full screen random safe armor breaking ex lunge.

814

not even close. giving him i.frames on regular ST’s wouldn’t even do that.

815

I was just wondering if I’m out of my mind, or if my noobishness is showing, or what (with regards to Claw).

I mean, its possible that theres just some higher level reasoning that I’m just not picking up on, I guess…

816

it would actually put him very high up there if his scarlet terror was reliable.

imagine if he had his cvs2 st.hk anti air

817

It depends where you buffed him. If you buffed Scarlett Terror to be invulnerble and give it no FADC its real and most beneficial use would be during wake up situations, to prevent people from jumping in and force safe jumps every time (HK Scarlett Terror is 4 frame start up). And it would make rush down characters work for their wins a bit more because pressure wont be as effective.

Right now in Super its easier for rush down characters to get in and win in 30 seconds, than it is for Vega to keep them out for 70 seconds. Vega however can deal heavy damage really fast, but he needs to start the offense and Cosmic Heel is critical for maintaining and starting an offense. Although since the vast overwhelming majority of Vega players hold down back all day you rarely see this, and Vega is/would be reduced to this given invul frames on Scarlett Terror

Hold down back. Mash cr.mp even more. Use Scarlett Terror when you jump in. Use EX FBA. cr.mp x 5. rinse repeat.

Not a very efficient Vega in SF4.

If you kept the old Vega and buffed his EX RCF only he would still be the same, but give him combo into Ultra. EX RCF - Lv.2 FA - Ultra. The combo follow up of EX RCF -cr.mp - EX FBA is not worth the meter, but on Ultra yes. Vega does more damage for one meter. So using two meters to do less damage than a 1 meter combo isn’t good meter management. Landing EX RCF to begin with would be incredibly hard, and its a gamble when you use it to frame trap people. cr.mk xx EX FBA

the cr.mk buff he recived in AE was really good and would have complimented his kara-throw/Cosmic Heel game, making it much more deadly. But the kara-throw/Cosmic Heel pressure is gone in AE because Cosmic Heel is no where near as good.

So imo if had stayed the same and gotten cr.mk buff and a Scarlett Terror buff he would have been easily B+ maybe even top tier

because of solid offense and defense options

-Cosmic Heel to punish techs and bad pokes and be +3 frames to continue offense
-Kara throw to open people up and set safe jumps
-6 frame cr.mk to frame trap easier and create a better high low mix up of Cosmic Heel Kara throw
-Exellent poking footsie game complimented by kara throw scooping and Cosmic Heel
-defensive offensive options on wake up with addition to offensive defensive option when attacked while standing
-good frame traps that lead to big damage and very good positining with multiple ways to attack
-Combo into Ultra

But with the nerf to damage output, EX FBA and cr.mp where weakened. And Cosmic Heel being nerfed to shit. Even with Combo into Ultra and 6 frame cr.mk he is low C tier to D tier imo. No way to open people now, lost the damage out put, and turtleing and zoning just being very weak in general (not enough damage is generated). No way Vega is going to win anything big in AE.

Now you want him broken? Keep current Vega + Buffs in AE

Make slide safer faster
Make Izuna drop a 2-3 frame grab (currently 1 frame for regular, and 2 for EX)
Make FBA recovery faster
Make RCF do more chip damage

@Hetblzn

No it wouldn’t. To use Scarlett Terror you have to give up offensive, space, positioning to use it so no. Vega has so many reliable AA while he is standing that it wouldn’t matter. It just make it easier for lazy people. When knocked down, that is a different story, but look at Gen and Sagat both have wake up reversal’s and they are no where near the top.

@Nyo

Happy princess. did it jsut for you.

818

I’m sure your post about Vega is informative, but I refuse to wade through all that purple text.

819

Abel lowest tier? Even though he plays exactly the same and all of his bad matchups got nerfs? I don’t understand daigo’s logic here.

820

well, he gets raped by rushdown characters like cammy, yun, yang, akuma and probably rufus…and dive kick/rushdown characters are the top tiers in AE.

I guess having bad matchups against basically the whole top 8 makes a character low tier since everyone is gonna be playing those characters.