he has pretty good damage output in footsies and can force you to be cornered. He can do big damage, but his safest and best options “only” do good damage and push you to the corner. He also has chickenwing combos which hurt and godly hitconfirms into super.
Fei can DP FADC(chickenwing) U1 as a combo into ultra, it isn’t full ultra, but he can still knock off a good 35-40% off of a raw mk flame kick FADC, and more if he comboed into it. No one held not getting full ultra in combos against Cammy in console.
I don’t know if he’s top tier in AE, but I think saying he lacks combo into ultra or damage is absolutely false.
Damage output’s pretty good if you can hit the Mago combo consistently. He can also combo into U1 pretty easily, it’s just that it doesn’t do the full animation.
Anyway, it’s not like you can say those two things define a godlike character. What if, in SSF4, E Honda had a Sonic Boom, Dhalsim had normal health and Chun backdash, and Guile had a 3 frame DP? They’d all probably be godlike without having the damage output (well except Honda) and good mixup game.
Anyway, against Fei if you do anything, you basically eat Rekkas. Whiff a move? Rekka. Do something normally safe against most of the cast? Rekka. Not pressuring Fei? Rekka pressure. Focus attack? Rekka. And as soon as you pressure Fei, he has DP, U2, and Chickenwing.
Nobody uses the FADC into Ultra, it’s not consistant enough - you land 2 hits and your up for 250ish from 2 bars and an Ultra. Damage is good, but it’s not SF4 Sagat good. Landing a CW against a decent player is hard enough let alone hitting the 1 frame link into HP after.
So now he has it, but no one uses it? Akuma doesn’t combo into ultra and he is widely considered to be a top tier character. Fei at least has the option, and while it isn’t a common one, it’s still there and will be landed from time to time, but he also happens to have a godly super that is worth saving for, a very damaging, and lastly a godly focus that is good enough coupled with his overall footsies for crumple -> ultra to be a common occurrence.
yes because anyone elses combos into ultra do anywhere near as much as vanilla sagat. I just tested this because I was bored, but in common uppercut FADC situations Fei does about a jab less damage than Ryu does on average.
Just because Sagat was top tier in one game due to certain attributes does not mean that in another game a character without those attributes cannot be top tier because if that was the case you’d have to throw out most of the top tier in super.
Look mate, I play Fei Long, I main him. I think he’s very powerfull, but God Tier? Can’t see it. His bnb’s are character specific, his FADC is character specific, his CW juggle …you guessed it. His supers pretty good, godly’s a bit over the top, Focus is great. Saying he has all these things is cool, but you have to look at the bigger picture. At the moment - Hold back = defeat Fei Long. That may have changed.
Akuma has a vortex that’ll fuck you up no end, can land silly damage, can teleport escape and if he feels like it can just lame it out. Comparing them is like apples and oranges.
You have your thoughts I have mine, lets not turn this into yet another SRK handbag match.
Yeah, Fei’s damage is through pressure and mixups, because his huge damage combos aren’t really applicable when your opponents don’t give you opportunity to punish them. Because his dynamics as a character are like that, he doesn’t have huge comeback potential against turtley playstyles who don’t offer much opportunity to get in.
People being overly offensive on Fei are opening themselves to his comeback potential through his setups and mixups, it’s the people who turtle or play defensively and keep Fei out of their face with walk speed (generally backwards movement mind) and good use of normals to stuff Rekka attempts, so 60-80% of the time they only deal with Fei’s Rekka pressure and single pokes, which can really whittle down Fei. All of Fei’s hardest matchups are known to get harder when the opponent plays defensively. I’ve seen it argued that Dictator-Fei is 4-6, but if he plays it defensively it can easily be 6-4 Dict. Defensive Rog’s are hell, but he can pretty much play how he likes whilst Fei has to stick to the script regardless in the MU. Same goes for a lot of characters. I know it sounds odd, because you’d think it’d be better to prevent him from being offensive by being offense your self, but even in the mirror I find it’s better to directly prevent his offense rather than go ahead with my own, because it gets you blown up. Akuma would be one exception, and a lot of his mixup options can cleanly beat Fei’s defensive options and option selects can cover some areas that Fei can escape.
I guess the point I’m making (though I’m still not sure why I’m making it lol) would be that, from everything I’ve seen ranging from my own performance to watching a lot of top level Fei footage, Fei isn’t top tier a la Sagat, his comeback potential isn’t quite as strong as a lot of the cast, his pokes are godlike but his walkspeed is 22nd fastest. So I’m not sure it’s a case of being OP, but that seems to be the feeling everyone is giving me, he’s just now been given better odds in his toughest matchups.
Though I don’t really agree with the all around nerfing that’s been going on. I thought the top tiers in Super were really well balanced, and that adjusting primarily the lower tiers would have been the way to go to bring them up to speed with the better characters. That might be because I’d rather everyone be brought up closer to the top tier instead of Fei getting bashed about by the nerf bat himself and losing some of his tools. If they do choose to nerf him I would prefer it to be in damage alone than change the way he plays. lol I’m scared like bitch because I know it’s coming now, but then again, someone has to be on top.
Cool story bro. I main Bison in SSF4 and I think he’s mid tier. Doesn’t stop the fact that he’s high tier (some would argue top tier). I mean, sure he does low damage, has shitty anti-airs, has weak punishes, probably the third floatiest jump in the game, and has limited escape options (seriously, even though all of his ex-reversals have invincibility, one Ryu safe jump DP OS beats Ex-Devil’s Reverse, Ex-Headstomp, Ex-Psycho Crusher, Backdash, and pressures just plain blocking) but he also has all of these great tools (forward dash, lk scissors pressure, cr. lk, st. rh, j. mp into Ultra). The fact of the matter is, people are biased for or against the character they use, ESPECIALLY if they lose a lot with them (and by this, I mean you’re not winning whatever tournies you enter).
You can’t judge a character based on your personal limitations. I am complete shit with anti-airing with Bison. If a shoto or Balrog does j. rh, I just block since st. rh gets stuffed clean and cr. fp has like a 200 frame startup. That doesn’t mean Bison loses for free to jump-ins. It just means it’s really difficult and I have to adjust to play the character to the best of my ability. I don’t see Mago complaining that he can’t land his B&Bs against certain characters. I just see him raping face with huge combos no matter who he plays. I mean, seriously, take this for reference: SMASH players constantly have to deal with changing variables; timing changes frequently depending on percentages AND characters playing against. And I’m not talking about “oh he’s a big character, use this combo.” No, many times you have to learn a separate timing for each character as well as a separate timing for each percentage group (i.e. 0-50%, 51-100%, 101-150%, etc.) for combos/chain grabs. I don’t see them complaining about all that jazz.
Holding back doesn’t beat Fei. I mean, seriously: Fei does one rekka and you block it. Guess who has to attack now? I’ll give you a clue, you took damage and Fei didn’t. It’s easy for Fei to bait you into attacking him and then heavily punishing you when you do. Try to hit Fei? Focus crumple and Ultra. Space it so that you barely touch Fei? He moves back a step and Rekkas you for like 100-200 damage plus the knockdown. Fei doesn’t really even need it, but his command throw is really useful (if used correctly) too.
As for Akuma- His Vortex is good, but he has far less health than Fei. Although toned down (supposedly), Fei’s chickenwing is sorta like an offensive teleport with a different risk/reward. It is more vulnerable, but it can also hit for damage and combo. Akuma’s defensive options are DP, TP, and Tatsu escape (lost it in AE). Fei’s are DP, CW, and U2. Considering Akuma’s low health, he SHOULD have good escape options too.
Just to note, you can’t escape Akuma’s vortex with Chicken Wing or Flame Kick, both get stuffed by about half of his mixups, which are generally the ones you think you can get out with those moves from. As well as that, he can purposely let you CW out and OS Ultra/Super and generally just control your options heavily.
sabin brought up a good point about a lot of people having not played AE. if the jab sweep combos make charge characters that much of an easier fight, then fei may well have jumped up to #1, because in console super he loses to all of them except blanka and dee jay
he also had a slew of 5-5’s against characters that got nerfed. i dont know if the nerfs change those matches, but if they presumably made the fights easier for fei, then i can understand how he could be absolute best
well i never thought he sucked or was even mid tier. but in console, i dont think that there is a definative best. so even if fei is top tier, there are a bunch of other characters who are right on his level, in console
but if you want weaknesses, theres his walk speed, and he’s weak to mid range focus fishing. like in between where the first hit of chicken wing hits, and still in rekka range. rekkas dont auto break focus, most players just hold focus too long
so if you play a character that can hold that spacing easily with their walk speed, and has good range on their normals you can give him a hard time. chun comes to mind. a lot of people dont think of footsies in terms of maintaining spacing, they just think of how can i hit you with this one button, and then proceed to get rekkaed
Damn right you can’t never said I did. A quick example of your “Holding back doesn’t beat Fei long” - Mago counter picks against Rog and Guile why?. This is arguably the best player in the world playing a character that only needs to fart in your direction to win apparently.
Fei Long can be shut down, you obvioulsy know a bit about the game, but some of your information in your post is wrong. It’s not as easy as just doing 1 rekka to be safe, rekka’s can be hard to control even for top players.
Take a look at this [media=youtube]Mc_7PNtbWPk]YouTube - Mago [Fei] vs Bonchan [Sagat[/media](i chose this match because if anyone knows the Sagat match up - its Mago). Rekka’s can be punished by normals, can be badly spaced and hit hard if you fuck them up. If your sticking pokes out there you deserve to be punished. Good players wont do that.
Each to his own mate. I’m in no way saying Fei Long isn’t top Tier material, I just think he’s not S Tier like some are making out.
Hmm I can agree with that. I don’t know if I’d put him in S tier, but when all of the top players (including arguably the best in the world) say he’s by far the best character in the game, I don’t know if I’d doubt them. That being said, part of it is that all of the top players have to play Mago a bunch. Also, Tokido thinks Akuma’s broken too so take that for what you will.
As I mentioned in the Fei thread, their opinions might be tilted a little due to the fact they play heavy pressure dive kick characters, and Fei’s Ultra 2 shut’s that down. Who knows, I’m not good enough to give answers.
One thing though, Fei was alway’s mid B’s to B+ in every super list this year until Mago figured him out, take out of that what you will. Akuma’s the swiss army knive of characters, he’ll always be to me the only true top tier character.
I’m just glad the most interesting characters to watch are at the top of these tier lists. I was sick of watching charge characters just sit on their asses.