Gen has a 1 frame start-up Super too. It basically means that once he has it he can punish any jump from 3/4 or so of the screen. If his Crane ultra had the same properties as the crane super he’d be borderline broken!
@dime nice argument there bro, zangief mixups are low risk. I think you forgot to add to your imba list ken´s lp srk and blanka ball rofl
I most definitely think HK CW was a stupid move. There’s beed debate about how this and that, but a good fei player will use them at the correct range. That is at the range where it cannot be DPed on reaction and where it won’t go over their head. At that range, CW is fucking retarded in terms of risk/reward for something invincible.
Another move that is stupid, not broken but stupid is ken EX tatsu. You just do it at certain moments and what happens is anyone’s guess, I’m pretty sure the player doesn’t even control what he wants to do with it. Will it hit once or twice? Left or right, etc. With the removal of the overhead property, the move is much less retarded, though.
Vanilla tiger knee was also stupid. What were they thinking with making it safe and hit on the way down? Sagat never had that kind of shit. Now that the 2nd hit does no damage, sure, the move is much less relevant, but that’s really a goofy way of fixing a problem.
Also agree with the 3f shoryukens and 1f supers.
Edit: and I mean AIR ex tatsu if it wasn’t obvious.
I consider that a command grab tbh. When he has that Super, isn’t impossible to safe jump him? I’m surprised I don’t this Super used more often.
Are you sure it’s a 1-frame super? I’m pretty sure that’s a typo in the frame data. Instead of 1+0, it should be 1+10.
You’re surprised something that relates to Gen isn’t used more often. In Vanilla Gen’s super was insane, due to how much meter he had at ALL times. RIP hands loop and Gekiro meter build.
Let’s be clear here. First off, Bison’s lk scissors isn’t a focus/armor breaker. It can be absorbed. If Bison spams it and you absorb ONLY the second hit, you can crumple and punish for a big combo. It’s only a focus breaker in the sense that it hits twice (or reversal). Now, considering how easy scissors is to stuff (not to mention how little damage it does), most Bisons cancel it from cr. lk. But if we’re gonna talk Bison cr. lk strings, then you might as well consider everything like that BS such as Dudley cr. lp xx lp mgb, Honda jab xx hands, Blanka jab xx elec.
You want some BS? SSF4 Honda’s Ex-Headbutt doing like 200 damage, having a billion frames of invincibility, and being safe on block from almost the entire cast. The only downside to throwing it out there (unless you’re Dudley, Chun, or someone else with an Ultra like that) is that you lose one block of meter. What’s this? Whiffed Ochio Throw from full screen and jab-hands block strings build meter basically for free?
dive kicks are fine. believe it or not, the hitbox is really small on the dive kick. its just that the trajectory and speed that fucks everyone up.
its safe jumpable. gen can’t grab any grounded opponents.
the reason why you dont use this more often is because meter is hard to come by. really hard. and he needs it to do damage. his crane super doesnt do too much compared to his mantis super + followups.
no, 1+10 was the vanilla data, in super, its 10x faster.
its mostly only stupid on wake up, mostly. 300 damage for trying to meaty throw or anything standing vs fei was retarded. as a fei main, i admitt that.
it still has the same applications as to what you are talking about since the invincibility in console super wears out before fei even leaves the ground. so if you had problems reacting to it before, you will still have those same problems. they didnt increase the start up or slow down the movement in any way
There are a lot of questionable choices in this game in regards to things like hitboxes(a lot of characters have messed up wakeup ones), framedata, and move damage.
You can safejump Adon, it’s just that no one really bothered to find setups that work for him. You have to use different timing to safejump a few other characters but because it is only 1-2 frames of a difference for them I guess people don’t really care.
That’d be a 1 frame window to safejump him then because you’d have to be airborne the last active frame, which isn’t too bad at all, but then gen can recognize the safejump setup if it is simple(ryu sweep, j.hk) and simply not block because of his stupid wakeup invincibility bs, then punish you.
Adon’s wakeup was like 4-6 frame earlier than most though wasn’t it?
So apparently dp’s can be safe jumped under strict circumstances, very character dependent off an untechable KD mainly a throw. But just don’t know how practical. Don’t see it in pro vids maybe to risky even if the player knows the setups. So that’s in the strictest sense of the term safe jump. Then more loosely making him whiff a dp exploiting its lack of horizontal range. Ryu’s of course.
Actually there are some “true” safejumps for dp’s:
Ibuki can hit shotos with neckbreaker then immediately wiff a cr. Mp for timing and spacing. If shoto does reversal dp it will wiff and ibuki gets a free punish.
That’s one if the 3 different types of safe jumps.
The other 2 are:
The standard safejump that we all know.
The hitbox safejump that works cause the jumper is to far away to be hit by the first frame of the dp.
And finally there is a safejump that I use that isn’t truly a safejump, but works all
The same as a mixup:
The empty jump safejump ( works versus 3 frame reversals) basically you jump in with 4-5 frame safejump timing but don’t press a button. This way you have no recovery frames and can block the dp. Once they get used to that and start not dp’ing you can safejump them for real and they won’t dp cause there afraid of the empty jump. This can be a high low mixup between emptyjump
Delayed crouchtech and regular safejumpnsince safejumps hit high.
-dime
I’ve seen some setups designed to stuff 3f DPs as it would hit the DP after invincibility wear off or make it whiff.
Of course these setups aren’t good when they catch on and just delay the DP.
7 frames faster according to the labwork thread.
Yeah but it doesn’t prevent you from safejumping him because his reversal is still 4+ frames. God forbid you have to actually think about the matchup differently.
People just don’t bother to come up with setups like I said.
A safe jump is defined as a jumping attack that forces the knocked-down defender to block, because if they use an invincible wakeup move you have enough time to block it and then punish.
There is no jumping attack that lets you do this on 3 or 4 frame reversals. Tripguard lasts 4 frames (you cannot block for 4 frames after you land from your jumping attack), so this is impossible by definition.
What you CAN do, is time your jump 2 or more frames earlier so that it LOOKS like a safe jump. Because you are early, your attack will end sooner and you’ll be able to block. The difference in frames between a true safe jump and a “faked” safe jump is practically indistinguishable to the human eye, leading to the misconception that you can safe jump Ryu’s Shoryuken (or other 3 and 4 frame reversals).
Are you really gonna try and defend that Adon should have his wake up be 7 frames faster then everyone else?
You can do a true classic safejump versus 4 frame reversals.
Trip guard is 4 frames but it is cancelable on the 3rd or 4th frame into a block only (no specials)
This is why 3 framers aren’t safejumpable but 4 framers are.
1st frame = in the air, meaty.
2nd frame = on the ground recovering
3rd frame = on the ground still recovering (dp hits)
4th frame = on the ground, recovery canceled by block ( 4frame reversals get blocked on this frame.
It’s just very hard to safejump 4 frame reversals cause there is no leeway at all, it’s one frame timing.
-dime
Hmm. Good to know.