SSF4 Tier List Thread REBOOT Super + AE (Updated: 02-01-09)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
341

Akuma’s footsies are exactly the same as Ryu and Kens and his sweep has a longer range then both. I would class his footsies on the same level as Ryus and above Kens. Akuma doesn’t HAVE to use the vortex and saying ‘you suck’ or ‘your opponent sucks’ is some patronizing statement. Momochi, who doesn’t REALLY on Akuma’s vortex, would rape you for free 10-0. Tokido is a vortex king whereas Momochi, plays a solid Akuma.

Also Abel’s mixup after step kick is only a true guessing game when he has one bar. ALL 3 frame normals can prevent Abel from, TT’ing and following up with cl.hp. If the Abel does a tick throw you can plink the normal with lp and lk to tech the throw and if he has meter he can EX TT, which is risky.

Zangief doesn’t deserve to be there at all because he HAS to get in to do any damage and is the only mixup he has. It’s his reward for getting past the opponents zoning.

Fuerte is ONLY mixup, he has NOTHING else. That is all he has to rely on his mixups because he hasn’t got chain combos, links, (safe) chip damage options etc. Complaining about his mixup is like complaining about Dhalsim running away, he’s SUPPOSED to do that.

Viper has mixup but it’s just like every other character except good execution is needed and it’s risky so she’s rewarded with high damage (which she deserves). All those complaining about ‘burn kick, burn kick’ seismo feint etc’ don’t know how to play against Viper. Most characters have a normal that goes under her burn kicks, allowing for a punish. ALL characters can focus her burn kicks etc etc. Seismo feints are EXACTLY the same as Ryu whiffing a jab before throwing a fireball, it’s to bait you into guessing wrong so they can punish.

EVERY character has their OWN footsies, just because a character doesn’t whiff punish doesn’t mean they don’t have footsies. Viper whiff punishing Ryu’s cr.mk with her own cr.mk xx mp TK = footsies. Viper seismo feinting is the same as Ryu whiffing a short before throw (footsies). Zangief has footsies, Viper has footsies, Abel has footsies EVEN El Fuerte has footsies (watch TKD react to RF moves essentially making it a whiff punish, [media=youtube]irVyT6o6N1s]YouTube - Ojisan Boy (Sagat) vs TKD (El Fuerte) [Team Saitama vs Team Kanagawa[/media] ).

I’m expecting some guys to disagree with me but imo EVERY character has footsies and mixup is A PART OF THE GAME get used to it. Everybody knows defence is the most difficult aspect of Street fighter work on your defence and stop complaining… sheesh.

342

The true footsie characters aren’t rewarded as much for doing what they’re meant to do than the aggressive rush down ones. Yet, playing as the latter is much simpler strategically. When Daigo said that fireball characters are no more, he should’ve reworded it to zoning as a whole is simply not as powerful as it used to be. Being able to zone efficiently procured the only feeling of control left throughout the SF4s. But that’s been nerfed in favor of dive kick/high-low/command throw/srk fadc 50/50. How do you strive towards being a better player when you know that being put into one too many guessing games is going to dent even the greatest of players? Simple, you work a gameplan towards being the one to initiate his bullshit offense first and just ride on momentum. :slight_smile:

343

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

344

Keep this under your hats: every character has footsies. Seriously, I don’t wanna see that appear on wikileaks tomorrow.

Rushdown hella good in AE? That’s very un-IV of it.

I hope this is all relevant to and swinging back towards tier and match up specific discussion.

345

well apparently mixups are braindead, and braindead = top tier, so mix up characters must be top tier?

also big LOL @ Akuma’s footsies being "equal to Ryu and better than Ken"
I guess walk speed and the ability to cancel a normal into demon at any time counts for nothing
Akuma’s footsies are way better than either Ryu or Ken’s

346

You can debate the reasons for it all day, but I’m gonna agree with the guys who say that Abel, Fuerte and Viper aren’t fun to play against.

Before I was playing Guile, so I thought it might just be that they’re hard matches… but now I’m playing Fei, and do fine against these characters, but still hate playing against them.

347

ITT: Tier discussion = Game mechanic discussion

I hate the whole notion that mixup characters are somehow less skill based than other characters. Conditioning one’s opponent and making reads have been a part of high level play since forever. Just because it isn’t something someone can practice in the lab I suppose it’s less skill based? Right.

348

Because once you look back at a game, the only thing you can think of as to what to improve is to not fall into a position to get mix’d up in the first place. Like you said, you can’t lab guessing. Finding the opportunities to get into these advantageous positions does require skill; riding off momentum off a good guess has nothing to do with skill if your character simply possesses powerful tools within a certain context. That’s just risk:reward. And yes, imo, it does take less skill to wittle down someone off considerate bursts of damage than it is to chip them away and avoid mix-ups during 99seconds.

349

TL;DR: Everything should always be a neutral situation, nobody should ever have momentum, you have no skill unless you play a character i approve of. WTF is a mixup character? How do you hit someone without mixups?

350

I’m evidently targeting very specific characters, but everything seems to just fly over your head.

My point is that certain characters are fundamentally broken.

351

Only mixup character I could see being categorized as less skill based would be Fuerte, because he just doesn’t have anything else BESIDES guess off knockdowns. Most other “mixup” characters have tools for otherwise solid play.

352

KoF doesnt suck. Guilty Gear doesnt suck. BlazBlue CS II doesnt suck. Its all a matter of preferance, ease of use, and what is familiar.

A huge reason we have so many new players (ones that started playing competitively with the SF4 series) is because, to be quite honest, SF4 is MUCH more pick up and play friendly than any of the games you listed. You dont have to spend NEARLY as much time to get to a decent level in street fighter as you do to get to a decent level in KoF. Mind you im not talking about pro level, of course.

Wanna know why 3s and CvS2 didnt have as large of a following as SF4 does ?

Footsies / spacing is KING in those games. If you cant footsie, it becomes very difficult to win. SF4, not so much. Certain characters ? Yes. The game as a whole ? No. SF4 is MUCH easier to pick up and play and become decent (again, not pro or even very high level) than almost any other fighter that comes to mind. Even Capcom has commented on designing the game this way on purpose. They want to try and draw in as many people as possible.

another reason SF4 is so popular at a competitive level is because…everyone is already playing it… many top players have been on film saying that a main reason they play SF4 competitively is because its popular. Its a cycle. Sf4 being a popular game draws in the highest calibur players…SF4 having the highest calibur players makes it more popular and makes more people want to aspire to be a great player.

/ end rant

353

Has anyone here actually played against a good Fuerte? He takes a lot of skill to play at at a high level. Both execution wise, and actually working himself into the situations needed to get his mixup going.

@Sakeido
Classifying characters footsies can be tough at times especially when the tools are close, and can be matchup specific.

Example from what I know personally as a Blanka player, Ken’s footsies are the best against him, Ryu is next, and then Akuma. It’s a matter of perspective, and it isn’t like any of those characters are bad at footsies, putting Ryu/Akuma equal isn’t unreasonable.

354

I find it funny how everyone thinks from the BEGINNING of the match to the END of the match is complete mixup. El Fuerte doesn’t just begin mixing up, he has to get score a knockdown first, which is the most difficult part for him. From the knockdown he gets rewarded with his okizeme. He takes a LOT of skill, especially because he doesn’t have footsies as good as Akuma (making it more difficult to get a knockdown), who potentially has a safer and more damaging mixup than El fuerte anyway.

355

I dont like any character where if the opponent gets a knockdown, he can easily take 40/50 percent of your health without even taking educated guesses. he doesnt even have to guess. you do. getting 1 knockdown can lead to death in many instances when playing against el fuerte. some people might say " well thats true, but gief is the same way ". yes and no. gief can kill you from a single knockdown, yes. gief takes a fuck ton of work to get in with (vs a competent opponent at least). el fuerte has 2 hits of armor on his ex run, his wall bounce is insanely fast, and his slide is only -1. not to mention he also has an air grab which gives him free godlike oki. he has plenty of options.

if a bad fuerte gets a single knockdown, he can still do an assload of damage. you cant say that about most other characters.

the only thing a fuerte can do that i would give respect to is RSF because that shit is actually difficult.

@Ice_Rei

okay honestly dude…how many characters have footsies like Akuma…come on. I know what youre saying when you bring that up, but i dont think capcom designed fuerte to be as much of a powerhouse as Akuma…i mean really…

356

Fuerte is top tier I guess

357

read the bolded, cause thats what i’ll argue.

its completely wrong. they are NOT the same, not even in the slightest. ryus who use jab feints allow the opponent to walk in on them almost for free. why? cause the fireball that may be following is either easy to react and block or a simple walk backwards for a slight second will block it. this is NOT the case with seismo feints. seismo hits LOW. thats huge cause viper basically forces the other character to block low for a duration while the feint is active and may come out. also, wiffed jab> fireball> makes contact with opponent, is much slower than seismo> hits opponent. and also seismo is much scarier than any regular fireball as it does much more damage than fireballs do when its canceled into a burning kick for the 2 hit combo. its just plain silliness to compare the 2 moves between ryu and viper, the ramifications of getting hit with either are completely different.

@bman:

i completely agree with you and the stupidity of “mixup” characters at least in sf4. personally i like both mixup AND zoning characters.
but currently i main ibuki, who probably has the single stupidest mixups in the entire game besides cammy/rufus. i think ibuki in her current form is a completely bullshit character. overpowered? not at all, just bullshit. i also think viper is bullshit. i think abel is bullshit. seth is as well. so basically, yeah. but the problem is that the zoning scharatcers were also completely bs as well. vanilla sagat, super guile, akuma jumpback fireball>mixup between hk or lk demonflip or regular fireball or another jumpback fireball, is bullshit.

but basically sf4 is nothing but a bunch of braindead flowchart characters, from the zoners to the mixup characters. imho its not so much that either mixup or zone based characters are stupid… its more of the way that sf4 implements them that makes them seem so. in the end, there really isnt much difference between and ibuki kunai mixup against a character thats forced to block it, versus a guile thats spamming herpderp lp boom ex boom and cr.fp. thats a mixup as well. its just lower damage, till guiles opponent makes a BIG guess like using an ultra to go through an lp boom, but gets blocked and gets finished off with sonic hurricane… it was a reactive guess that didnt work, had it been an ex boom or a fierce boom it may have worked if the player didnt get hit in the middle of the motion for there ultra… but you get what im saying im sure.

i just really dislike it when guile players think that “zoning with booms” is some higher level shit than oh say dry ass abel mixups… both are one and the same, both can reek huge damage in single spurts or in lower doses. both are completely dry and programmed into the game.

i also dislike it when 5050 character specialitsts think that they are the ones that are on a higher level cause they are doing some “high execution shit” whereas the “fireballers” are just… fireballing.

lol, really i just think that all players should somehow be required to play both a freballer and a close range “mixup” character… that would probably shut a bunch of people up.

but like i said in the beginning, really, its sf4 and new school fighting games in general that make all of this shit look so bad.

sf4 is just pretty, and slightly fun.

and as long as the characters remain in there current state of stupidity (shotos have unsafejumpable dp’s and invincible moves that require no meter, rufus has cr.fp and D/F+mk, vanilla sagat had jumping mp etc etc etc) the game will remain just a baddie amongst other fighting games.

good thing its pretty and for whatever reason, compelling. i love the game for those 2 factors alone plus the mass of competition. but after those 3 factors, sf4 is completely a trash game, and everyone has known it for a LOOOONG time.

-dime

358

What I mean to say when Fuerte isn’t “skillful” is that his mixup game is braindead fucking easy to do when you DO score that knockdown. Even an ass tier Fuerte like myself can still keep kids guessing for days if I can get an untech knockdown. If getting into a position to do those mixups were easy Fuerte would be broken ass God Tier in this game, which he obviously isn’t.

359

Did you read what I wrote?? I stated that they are used for the same purpose, to bait the opponent into doing something (particularly risky) so they can punish. How is whiffing a jab to fake a fireball and make the opponent jump and cancelling a seismo to make the opponent jump different???

I didn’t say the EFFECTS are the same because I know they aren’t I said they can be used for the same purpose, to bait… please read it before making a statement. You even put it in bold and still didn’t read it i’ll say it again. Seismo feints are EXACTLY the same as Ryu whiffing a jab before throwing a fireball, it’s to bait you into guessing wrong so they can punish. Nothing wrong with that statement.

I play Cody and he has a “feint” which is fake rocks and it’s used to make the opponent think there’s a rock coming towards them to make them jump so I can punish kinda like Viper’s feint…

360

I despise that term. This strategy isn’t “skillful”. So what is skillful? Where do you draw the line? I’m sure Ryu can knock you down and do a random DP in your face, is that skillful? It was a braindead tactic because if you blocked he would have been punished for 20-40%.

I don’t understand it. Every character takes skill, just because you have to guess doesn’t mean it isn’t skillful =/. OH! or maybe… If a high level El Fuerte say, Kai, TKD, Skisonic or Tetsu make you guess THEN it’s skillful? El Fuerte making you guess takes skill. They have to make educated guesses on what their opponent is thinking otherwise you would see El Fuerte’s doing the splash over and over without mixing it up.

You consider yourself ass tier, you probably aren’t, but I’m sure if the “kids” you were playing were top level players it wouldn’t work out so much. When you play good players that KNOW how to play against C.Viper, El Fuerte and Abel and that don’t panic after getting one TT or one splash or one burn kick then you’ll start to see that their mixups take a lot of educated guesses, as does a lot of situations in SSF4.

These guessing games from their mixups aren’t different from guessing that your opponent will try and throw you, if they don’t you can eat a counterhit combo or a whiff punish (if you stand teched), it’s just there’s more options. It is general fighting game knowledge that when you get knocked down you will have to guess, regardless of the character. It just so happens that there are particular characters that get rewarded for a knockdown more than others i.e. Akuma getting a knockdown and Dhalsim getting a knockdown (it’s clear who is more rewarded).

I just dislike the term skillful because I don’t know where you guys draw the line on what is and what isn’t. I’ll tell you what IS braindead trying to “mixup” the CPU on hardest difficulty. They run on numbers and can react instantly to ANY situation, try play El Fuerte and mixup the CPU, it just doesn’t work lol.