I hope you can see the reasoning in this.
Abels players leveled up there shit considerably all the while better players dropped gat.
Quoting Sonic Hurricane:
I don’t know about Rufus and Abel, but I believe I can say that Fuerte and Viper satisfy this. Fuerte’s run stop and Viper’s Sesimo and Thunder Knuckle feints satisfy this to me. Not a whole lot of normals, but the feinting aspect is there. To me, it’s just a different form of footsies.
i think the game works that way since Vanilla, people just doesnt figured it at the time. When the fireball killers arrived at Super, everybody suddenlly realized that. Imo if a top player have started playing seriously with feilong or cammy in Vanilla, as Mago and Sako did in Super, we would have noticed what this game was about, a little sooner.
Last time I checked, wasn’t SFIV supposed to be an semi-offensive game to begin with? I mean, AE sounds and plays(from the few rounds I played yesterday) like more like the original vision of SFIV was supposed to be. People were noticing Fei, Cammy, Honda, hell, and even Guile…were good solid characters mid way through, near to the end of vanilla’s lifespan.
But yes, every character is winning in Super and AE…just proper representation and high level play make any character seem playable. That part is sad, really.
The problem though is that they are not traditional footsies. Viper’s FFF feels more like a zoning tool. Fuerte just to iffy for me to random. They are unique to the SF4 system and not bad, but they really random it out or make traditional characters play out of their element. And that I think is what makes them play this imaginary footsies I was referring to. Rufus has a 3rd Strike dive thing feel to him without the need to whiff normals, and Abel is not the traditional grappler, but the Alex with whole new packaging from the ground up.
Oh well, time will tell.
What are you talking about?
If you don’t understand what I just quoted and you bolded, why don’t you ask yourself that same question sir.
I don’t see this as a real problem though, because the pay-off is that these characters are hard as hell to use real effectively and are kind of vulnerable when in a corner or become repetitive in their mix-ups. It’s just another kind of playstyle, I guess people don’t like new things, I welcome them. I play Gen mainly but I have been playing viper for awhile now and she’s really interesting because she really takes a whole unique aproach to this game.
but the same can be argued about other characters some are just easier to use execution wise and others arent. Where Viper is hard in execution and a need to be consitent with that, her set ups are really not hard and or lead to a lot of stuff. As opposed to Guile who has easy execution but demands much more technical know how of spacing etc.
With viper you can play very good and loose and play like shit and win. Wouldnt u prefer a character with a solid design and not relying to land an ultra on every random guess? This is a fighting game, characters like her shouldnt exist.
Of course she is unique, but in a very very bad way. Its so sad to see a character being competitive viable just because you can get lucky in every matchup and win, even if she is crap. Thats the balance we want?
I really disagree that you can win easily by even playing crap with Viper, if your opponent knows to block low a lot then what ‘easy’ setup does she have? sjc a normal into ultra? That shit is mad hard to do in the heat of battle. I think her design is solid because she was built around the fact that her mix-ups can lead to ultras in many, many ways. That IS her design. However the required execution needed to become proficient in each of these setups/mixups is high. Doing FFF into meterless dash into ultra or sjc a normal in ultra are things you rarely see a run of the mill viper do. But a simple burnkick in the corner isn’t going to cut it at higher levels, that’s not what I’m argueing because that is kind of easy. She’s just a unconventional character that has feints as a ‘replacement’ for footsies.
I don’t know what i prefer, I’ve played gen since Alpha 3 all the way through super and he’s more traditional in the sense of footsies and whatnot. But what is ‘getting lucky’ exactly? If I do a cross-up crane j.mk with Gen into c.lk into super did I get lucky? because if my opponent blocked the c.lk it would be -7 frame disadvantage. Or if I set up a walldive cross-up setup into ultra or super did I get lucky? Some characters rely more on mix-ups than others, regardless of viewing it as lucky or not, it is a new aproach and I think it’s fine as long as there is a balance between mix-ups and the reward. I guess Viper has a hard learning curve but her reward is landing her ultra is many ways. I can’t speak for El fuerte though.
This … not hating on viper and I know a couple of very good european ones… but damn whenever I watch nearly any viper ( including the states like sanford , wolfkrone , and japan) It seems alot like her wins are the least solid and thought out of any cast member apart from maybe el fuerte. Mix ups and smoke and mirror strategy doesnt really work in street fighter. Im all for different character types and play styles but not ones that clearly tweak the harmony of strategy and fundamentals into a mess of 50/50 and fakes.
Anyway didnt mean to delve into a vanilla Sagat debate so apologies…but there is a reason why Mago, Ojisan ,Alioune and nearly every top Sagat apart from Bonchan dropped him…
The thing is most of her mix-ups (not talking about a simple burnkick into ultra) are well thought out. You think I do c.mk>tk feint> instant cross-up burnkick without reason? No, I do it because I haven’t done it before in the duration of a match and the chance of you blocking it is pretty small. You should watch Uryo against Daigo in the last Godsgarden tournament. I just named a example, but it is no more different than sagat doing uppercut fadc in the hopes that I pressed a button so he can do (f.hk) ultra. Except Viper is indeed build around these situations, to say they require no thought is rather…ridiculous. Sure some Viper just keep doing fron or cross-up burnkick or whatever, but everyone should know that’s not the kind of level I’m talking about.
On that note, I never knew Viper was so hated! I’m going to guess this is because some pro players have said she’s very storng and dislike playing her. Another case of ‘toplayerknowitallitis’ I dislike Akuma because if he knocks you down it’s basically 50/50 everytime if he’s on point. I understand he has the fundamentals to back it up (footsies, normals) but still. It’s all good though, each to his own.
Seth, Viper, Fuerte, Abel are all unfun to play against for the same reasons.
I predict Makoto will fall in these ranks pretty soon.
^^ seth shouldnt be included in that list. just because his mixup can be bananas doesnt mean he isnt conventional. hes got footsies, theyre just pretty terrible so he has to rely on heavy offensive pressure to be effective. it takes forever to kill someone with seth by turtling.
Seth should definately be included in the list of mix-up characters. After all, it is his core strenght, even more so in AE where he is forced a little more to take offensive action. He wasn’t talking about unconventional, more like characters that rely on mix-ups to win. He’s the most ‘normal’ out of those, but he hardly relies on footsies or naything else fundamental, to win.
So what if they’re not traditional footsies? Sure, different doesn’t mean better, but it doesn’t mean worse either.
Would you really want it where none of the newcomers added anything new to the game? I’m quite happy that these characters were made (even Seth). I probably wouldn’t have stayed in the game if it weren’t for Fuerte and for me finally seeing my preference in playstyle.
Unless you’re in the corner and she has ultra stocked, Viper doesn’t even do a lot of damage off of burning kick 50/50s. It’s less damage than a throw, and she’s not usually in as good of a position afterwards either. She has a lot of ways to set up her ultra, but for the most part it depends on her opponent doing something stupid such as…jumping at her when she has ultra. SJC ultra scales it so much that it’s usually not worth it unless you know it’s gonna kill them or if you sjc a normal into ultra as a punish. I’ll admit that midscreen ex seismo -> burning kick/sjc dash into ultra is pretty herp derp from a risk/reward standpoint though.
Taken from Tokidos blog after a question on his thoughts about Viper
“Viper has big damage combo, but She has a lot of risk at the same time.
That is to say, She is random. I think she is strong.”