it’s not already at that point?
I think fireballs are a little bit too nerfed, but SF2 was just retarded when half the cast straight up spent 95% of the time neutral jumping and blocking until they got chipped to death. I personally thought vanilla for projectile characters was the best except for sagat’s tiger shot was too damaging and guile’s fireball was too weak. Eating airborne tiger shot into ex tiger shot made me cry cause you lost sooooo much life.
real talk:
i have no problems with characters having a good fireball. in fact, thats what makes street fighter 2 a good game compared to some trash like 3s.
fireballs are fine in ssf4 although i dont agree with the tiger shot nerf with sagat even though its one extra frame of recovery.
however, sagat and ryu are fuckin dumb in vanilla sf4 and its not because of their fireballs. ryus dp is retarded. trade dp into ultra, early dp into ultra, fadc into ultra. you dont even need fireball skills to win with vanilla ryu. on top of that, he has probably the best set of normals in the game. totally uncalled for when you’re supposed to be a fireball zoning character.
vanilla sagat, boy i dont know where to begin. he can kill you in so many ways its ridiculous. tiger knee traps, tiger shot zoning, retarded ass damage off anything, and he can take a beating.
guile in ssf4 is probably the best designed fireball character in sf4. his zoning game is top notch but he also have his weaknesses. using guile requires you to master the sonic boom unlike vanilla sagat/ryu which can just bust off random gimmicky ass dp fadc ftw.
i havent played enough ae to make a judgement, but hearing about how guile gets counter hit out of his sonic boom is lame.
Writing this at 6 am and not really slept all night… but apologies for being offtopic ( it is not too off topic its still about AE changes i suppose)
I agree with ^ , I guess what I want the most is for fireball characters to have a stand and be able to do their zoning and fundamental game AND to co-exist with rushdown yun, fast walk speed poking fei , counter fireball dudley , cammy , ibuki etc.
But i think with a game with so many character types and attributes this isnt possible , once 3rd strike and alpha characters got introduced…fireball characters are the weaker batch.
The problem with fireball characters in general versus non fireball characters is that if the fireballers are to strong then it becomes a boring zoning game. But if the non fireballers are way stronger than the zoning characters it becomes a frame trap/throw/50/50 homogenous upclose game. So the only way to have both co-exist is to make both types absolutely broken at what they do. Ie st gief/hawk when they get in.
The only other route to take is to make both really bad at what they do…
But simply put it’s boring as fuck fighting against sim,guile, and gief. All are extremely polarized characters. The way they did ryu/Ken in super is probably the best overall way. Both characters have fireballs, but both have ambiguous crossups off there forward throws. So they get a little bit of both worlds. Sim as well has his 50/50 shenanigans with u1 teleport mixups and high low mixups. The assed out characters are guile and sagat as far as EASY crossup/non crossup 50/50’s, but that’s the price they pay for ridiculous zoning tools.
Anyways, I just think that capcom wants to see the fireball characters take on a more active role as far as offense is concerned. I don’t really feel that’s a bad thing.
-dime
Fireballs are useless in 3S? lol. That’s like saying attacking in 3S is useless because you can parry…
Yeah, let’s make fireball characters offensive because they were made to be like that in the first place! Surely Sagat would own Fei hard.
Your not serious with that are you? It’s funny that Fei long remains relativley untouched in the series yet only now he’s getting called herp derp? besides if that were the case , where’s all the Fei Long’s? Try playing a decent Sagat with Fei long, Sagat can still Zone, he just does’nt have a 500hp uppercut to back him up incase he fucks up.
I don’t have a problem with making Zoning characters zone, it’s what they do, but giving Capcom shit for letting in characters (weaker characters in partcular) that don’t zone is just off the mark IMO.
If you chuck a ball and the player has an EX bar , then it’s your own damn fault.
I think we should let AE pan out before jumping the gun, Diago’s only switched because at this moment, Yun looks a bit OP and he probably wants a change. That might not be the case in a few months.
What? Everyone pretty much always has an EX bar. So if you don’t chuck a ball and the guy just walks you into the corner is that your own damn fault too?
All this sagat thrash talk reminds me, viper never gets any crap but she can (althoug very skillfully obviously) combo into her huge damage ultra from so many ways for around 500hp usually, sometimes even higher depending on how you combo into it. I play her myself but I’m just curious, is it because people associate viper with ‘hard character’ or something? Her comeback potential is amazing, and I think in AE she will move up a place or so in the tier lists due to nerfs of other character and she will stay exactly the same.
edit: well I guess viper doesnt really have much herp derp or anything, most of her combos are pretty hard to pull of, but still.
Well you shouldn’t be holding back for a start, people want you in the corner, it’s your job to stay out of it with spacing/normals and “well timed” fireballs.
If you know the match up’s, you know how the character gets in. Again if your chucking plasma from any closer than far to 3/4 screen then your inviting trouble, unless youve got the reactions to back it up.
Fireball character’s did’nt just get put in D tier overnight because of buffs to other characters.
well to his credit sagat dosent have much in the way of spacing with normals.
anyway, i dont know that i buy fireball characters being trash now either. sure they may have just gotten 2 more tough matchups with the twins, but its not like they lose to all the characters without fireballs now
I wasn’t speaking specifically on behalf Sagat, besides; he does have some great options, Cr-Hp, cr-jab, Focus attack.
Anyone who play’s characters like Fei will realise just how hard it is to win sometimes, perhaps Capcom are just trying to make that feeling even across the board. Ie - you can still play guile like guile, but you might have to last a little longer at doing it or Ryu getting his trade Ultra back - it’s not all doom and gloom.
Personally I play Fei Long, Guile and Sagat so I’m not siding one way or the other, I enjoy the challenges and can’t wait to try out AE.
I’m pretty sure if Daigo played Ryu or Mago played Sagat that they’d still be zoning almost every character. There are already so many ways to get around fireballs in Super but that doesn’t mean “AMG WTF IMPOSSIBLE TO USE FIREBALLS!”
I think some of you don’t completely know what Zoning means so I’ll explain it. Zoning is keeping your opponent in a situation where they have a disadvantage and you have an advantage. For example, Dhalsim VS Zangief. It’s pretty obvious that when Dhalsim is 3/4’s of the screen away he’s at an advantage and Zangief is at a BIG disadvantage, the Dhalsim then uses NORMALS and fireballs to keep Zangief in that position. If Zangief manages to get in the advantage switches and Zangief has to remain in that advantageous position.
Same thing applies to Ryu VS Fei Long. Yes! Fei Long has ways to get around fireballs, has a great focus attack, etc, but that doesn’t mean you CAN’T zone him. My point is, if you’re a smart enough player then you would still be able to zone in AE regardless. Half of the people haven’t even played AE yet, myself included and are jumping to conclusions saying it’s crap or the nerfs are blah blah.
Everyone thought the Blanka nerfs were SOOO terrible. If you watch T SRAI then you would know that it wouldn’t affect him at all and in fact make his Blank better because now his electricity has less startup etc.
I just want to play the damn game and judge for myself anyway. Whether Capcom kept the game the same or not wouldn’t change a thing about the SF community. They ALWAYS have something to complain about, just play the game and STFU. Top players play the game and find stuff out, even in Vanilla where Sagat was retarded, you didn’t hear top players complain they just dealt with it.
Viper seems balanced around landing this U1 once per round, really. The rest of her gameplan is rather risky and her fondamentals are weak (footsies, AA).
ROFL
Guile is like 10 times harder to play at high level than fei long and has to work for his wins much more than fei.
What challenge, playing the one of the (if not the) best and easiest characters in the game?
The fei vs ryu example wasnt a good one btw, fei wins ryu in footsies too (and destroys him). But if u went to the feilong forums and said it a month ago you were a retard because feilong wasnt top tier is just mago´s uber skill that makes him look good.
Viper is dumb, crap character design that is only good because anything she does leads to ultra. No wonder why tokido hates her so much, the entire char shits in fundamentals, footsies and mindgames. Also its a known fact that if u play viper the down back direction of the stick will stop working for no reason, just something I noticed.
Sharin u mad?
You seem to hate on every character mentioned so far, viper doesnt have mindgames LOL.
Viper kind of does rely on throwing a wall of smoke and mirrors, with all the fakeouts and whatnot to force a reaction. It’s not like she stands there playing footsies with you to get in.
And I agree with Warhawk that up close mix-up characters are becoming more and more prominent the farther down the road we go~
Nah I only hate viper and fuerte because they shit on the basics of a fighting game that should be based on footsies and spacing. You just dont remove that from a character and then balance it out giving her retarded damage output and a constant 50/50 in all situations that can potentially end the round.
What I hate is people playing a fucking strong character and denying it or just making up the character matchups like fei-guile being 7-3 or ryu having a 6-4 advantage to feilong.
Fei is not specially hard to play, few characters are. I play rufus and I will be kidding myself if I thought the character is hard or low tier. Of course he has advance stuff, every character has it, that doesnt make him hard to play.
Viper, Feurte, and Abel are all pretty dumb in how they play. At least Abel can rely on footsies to a large extent though, so he’s more legit than the last two. Burn kicks are absolutely idiotic, not over powered, just dumb in their application to a match.
points to the part where I say I play Guile and Fei Long
What I find most amusing about your (and anyone else who likes to emulate top players thoughts) post is that you referring to Fei as “one of the best characters in the game” is all off the back of top players opinions and not based on actual facts. Fei Long has had arguably the least amount of tweaks since the original, but now people are crying rivers like it’s suddenly just come to light.
The Ryu example wasn’t mine - and I am a regular poster in the Fei forms, find me a Fei Long that say’s the Ryu match is hard (was it ever?) and I might pay attention a bit more to your posts, but fact is you won’t
Any character in this game is easy mode if you have the time and dedication, winning with them is a whole different ball game, something I think you don’t quite grasp.
Out of interest who do you play? Edit : Sorry, noticed your post above.