WTF? Vanilla sagat was as close to broken as a NOT broken character can get.
Perfect example to vanilla sagats stupidity is that the chun matchup was 6-4 sagat, yet chun almost completely counters him naturally. (better footsies, walk speed, great fireball counters etc.)
And yet its in sagats advantage… In my mind that shows how stupid he was in that game. SO MUCH DAMAGE. So much hp. Absolutely ridiculous tools like safe on block armor breaker. Stupid ass jumping medium punch.
The list of dumbshit vanilla sagat got to do could fill pages.
I kind of miss vanilla sagat - I don’t miss losing 70% of my life because of DP FADC F+HK ultra though.
fireballs aren’t what they were in vanilla, pretty much every character has a way to go through a fireball for 1 or no meters - all but a few characters that don’t have fireballs have anti-fireball ultras - some characters have fireballs AND anti-fireball ultras (Guile, Chun, Seth)
It’s simply too risky at a lot of ranges now, Capcom hates fireballs - there are lots of things that contributed to Sagat being weaker after vanilla, it’s a lot more than just damage.
Maybe we disagree on what “herp derp” is. Fei is a great character, but I don’t randomly take 600 damage from trade uppercut, and i’ve never been killed by him in 2 hits. Thats all I was saying.
“herp derp” IMO is stuff that is dumb and shouldn’t exist like j.hk EX snake strike doing a billion damage.
Also still disagreeing on the TU stuff. Do it crouching and super late so the first frame hits him, and it doesn’t get beat by jump in fierce from Ken. Yeah the hitbox is super low at that part of the move, but it isn’t like it can’t beat those jumpins.
the only 2 sagats that i could never beat out here were paul and combo jack.both of whom simply outclassed me in skill by considerable margins. chuns tools> sagats tools in that specific matchup. what made it bad was the hp and damage difference… thats pretty much it. with the exception of the 2 players mentioned i would have sagat backed into a corner more often than not and scared of sticking moves out… but then herp derp fadc>bs killed me…< pretty much every sagat game i ever played with vanilla chun.
also o sagat raping chun in st has absolutely nothing to do with vanilla in those matchups… almost completely different characters with the one exception that sagat still chucks plasma.
edit
we are completely off topic talking about vanilla sagat though…
They need to give sagat cancelable st.lk and he will be more than fine, the problem with him now is the millions of anti projectile stuff, unlike ryu or other fireball characters sagat cannot survive with his poor walkspeed.
His fireball game is 90% of his strategy and you just shut it down completely with most of the characters with specials/ultras, vanilla sagat was dumb so dont know why to even discuss that but now they overdid it with the anti-sagat stuff.
Btw, AE balance looks like crap. Still cannot believe feilong is better and akuma remained untouched. This two characters (and lets wait for yun) are going to have advantage against 95% of the roster.
But one could argue that Sagat basic philospy is the same in Vanilla, Super and AE. To throw TS to focre reactions, create space, set things up, keep people away. Chun from what I have seen in ST, and to the Chun’s that actully pose a challange in SF4 are those that walk forward. Sagat should beat that, until the necessary space to do so is lost. But youre right, off topic
The whole giving Sagat his st.lk cancability was discussed when SSF4 came out. I remember Trag, saying that st.lk was the big bullshit of Sagat, its what made him to good. The ability to throw a safe poke with that dynamic hit box allowed him to keep people out where he shouldnt be able to, start TK bullshit. Later on, Pieguy explained that giving Sagat st.lk back would break him again and cited top players in the Northen California agreed on that.
So what to do, as to not “break him” is tricky. TU should be landed as an AA, and when its landed as an AA its 180 damage, which where TU should be doing massive damage. You can also make it trade which is a plus. So making TU do more damage in grounded combos cant be the solution, especially when TK imo should be used to create that space to use your fireball and get people the fuck off.
IDK perhaps make him faster and give him the old TS with old damage and keep the current remainging nerfs/buffs? it will give him more versatility, allow him to use his amazing buttons, probably eliminate the need for st.lk.
Suppose, that SF4 was still the build to play, and SSF4 never came out. Do you think Sagat would still dominate like he did in the beginning? Cammy was just barely being figured out, more Gen stuff was being pumped out, more and more characters where finding ways to make Sagat STFU with TK strings, Vega crouch tech blow up, and wake up game was being developed, etc. And most importantly do you think people would still lose trade TU - fwst.hk - Ultra?
i cant believe how misinformed you are about fei long. its like you are forgetting that starnab and evans were really damned good with vanilla fei. you know, back when he went 4-6 against everyone
yeah, he got some buffs, but outside of the close strong into CW combos, and the hk cw invincibility(which he lost), there is absolutely nothing herp derp retarded vanilla sagat about him. and fei still loses to almost every charge character.
Vsagat lost to akuma and beat up on almost everyone else. thats possibly the worst top tier comparison you could make
So many whiners in this thread. I would have preferred it if Capcom would have just left it all alone and we still had the vanilla versions of all those characters. Who gives a fuck about imbalance? That’s what gives the game character, and besides, people work out how to "re"balance the game themselves, by coming up with new tricks and strategies. Capcom are fucking this whole thing up by constantly trying to “fix” the game. Just let it be. I don’t like spending 100+ hours mastering a character in training only to find out that after the next update half of the shit I leart won’t work anymore.
98% of the stuff that worked in SSF4 still works in AE. You guys are dumb as hell. On top of that, they even added more stuff for you to do with these “nerfs”
if the changes are for better or worse is a matter of opinion. they want every character to have a decent chance in every matchup. it may seem bland, but it works for this games engine if they take out the retarded parts as opposed to everyone getting something retarded.
Makoto’s fukiage juggles are gonna be the new j.hk ex snake strike. I don’t think a lot of people realize how ridiculous that shit is gonna be. Like…350 damage or around 300 + they get taken to the corner if you decide to end it with ex hayate instead of ex tsuguri.
I just wish that capcom would stop nerfing projectile based zoning.
Fireballs are what make sf the best fighter. Giving a crazy portion of the cast so many options for projectiles, and continuously nerfing projectiles is pretty disheartening. People just aren’t willing to learn the intricacies involved in playing as OR playing against a good projectile character. It’s sad that capcom feels they need to dumb the game down more and more in each iteration to appease the market. I was really hoping AE sagat would have a strong tiger shot game. But capcom chose to force him into a more “exciting?” rush down character.
Fei long is more herp derp than tiger shot based sagat not because he’s better, but because he is much, much, simpler. But in AE sagat is forced to play the same way fei does: do shit to build meter, frame trap with staggered TU fadc’s and mix in throws. Sad story.
Eventually the game is just going to turn into a bunch of dive kick/high-low/command throw/srk fadc 50/50 characters scissoring each other with ex messiahs and burning kicks.
I play Dudley and I should be happy but it’s boring when they force every character to play this way or that way by it making playing any other way be completely useless.
Pretty much how I feel.I’ll keep playing because Guy(my main) is a really fun character to play as and he is as up close as you can get.
However I wish they could just find a way for characters who zone with fireballs and characters who are close combat to co exist and both be as powerful as one another.Theres nothing more beautiful to see than someone just keeping their opponent completely locked down with fireballs and anti airs and it takes alot of time and practice to get to that level where you can do stuff like that.Capcom should reward people who can chuck plasma at a high level. At the same time though, it shouldnt be braindead.
I feel like AE will turn out like CVS2 mainly,with a little bit of every other fighter thrown in.
Actually someone wrote an interesting comment a while ago that watching the progression of sf4 is like watching the progression of street fighter itself after sf2; Fireballs get weaker and weaker until eventually you get to sf3:3s where they are useless.