Honda’s dash has bad range, but is average speed. The only reason he really has to dash forward is after FADC hands, or when focus dashing forward. The speed and range for these two uses is adequate.
Honda can anti air with st.hp, and sumo splash can also anti air. Not to mention that late jab headbutt(in super) beats pretty much anything. He can also do jb. whatever, or throw up a stop sign.
Honda can headbutt through certain fireballs. Most noticeably Sagat low tigers and Yoga fires.
You completely ignored Honda’s jumpins which are part of the reason why he’s so strong. j.mp has such a great hitbox they nerfed it in AE because it allowed Honda to literally jump for free in certain matchups, then you had to deal with a mixup where he can oicho off the j.mp blockstun, do a tick oicho, try to CH trap, or simply pressure with hands.
Honda can juggle into U1, but it’s situational. He really doesn’t need his ultra though because he has one of the 5 best supers in the game and builds a crapload of meter. Also the ability to juggle into ultra isn’t as important now as it was in vanilla.
st.hk knocking down in this game would be so stupid. Hands that knocks down every time after you just took a crapload of damage? Yeah that sounds remotely fair.
Seriously I know not everyone has played AE, but I would hope the people posting in here would have actually played vanilla/super. Honda is a top 10 character in both of those games, and you pretty much ignored why.
Like I said in my previous post, it’s a little more than normal throw range and it has 2 more startup frames. I’ve already posted extensively in this thread and the Zangief thread that I linked to about my feelings on command grabs in this engine and Honda’s is on the low end of the spectrum.
What you’re saying is that Honda doesn’t get much use out of his dash because it’s not a very good dash. You aren’t disagreeing with me here. You call it adequate, but I don’t agree. I think dashes and focus attacks should be as close to normalized as possible since they’re universal mechanics.
The former has limited anti-air use because of the weak hitbox. It’s not a proper anti-air normal like Balrog or Guile’s crouching fierce, for example. Like headbutt, the latter can only be made safe if you blow EX meter to give it full invulnerability frames.
See above. It looks like you play a very risky Honda. I’d much rather block a jumpin in this game when I don’t have meter than risk eating something nasty.
Jumping MP is also a good air-to-air normal - possibly the best in the game. It’s based off of his pre-ST jumping MP. This was one of Honda’s bright spots in this game. It’s a shame they’re nerfing it.
Yeah, his super is great, but you never get to use it because you have to crutch on EX headbutt/buttslam for anti-air, which is a real shame since Honda’s game really opens up when he has full super. Hands into super is amazing. This is why I wish they would have made jab headbutt a proper anti-air.
You really think it’s fair that Honda doesn’t have a normal trip in this game?
honda is undeniably top 10ish in super but he isn’t top 5
a strength he had that everyone hated was his ability to get damage off of random EX headbutts and jumps, the risk reward on both of those things is completely in his favor in a lot of cases
in AE they took the hands damage, his best jump in away but kept headbutt damage, people who used honda to beat new players by buttslamming over and over or spending all their meter to EXheadbutt over and over will still be just as successful doing so
Well you are totally wrong about command grabs in this game. They are good. Are they as good as they are in SF2? Obviously not, but they get landed at all levels of play, and in the framework of the game do the job they are supposed to do. Also if you think thats a little more range, then I don’t understand what a medium amount of extra range would be.
No what I’m saying is that in the 2 situations that Honda actually needs to dash, the dash is fine. His good walk speed generally covers his forward momentum fine, especially in conjunction with HHS. Honda walking forward > Honda dashing forward even if his dash was faster/covered more range. Nearly everything is a universal mechanic, and changing those between characters is part of what adds variety between characters. I sure as hell don’t want to fight Sim who has quick dashes/focus/jumps, and I don’t think it would be fair to a character like Makoto to make her dash slow/not cover a lot of distance. Variety is important, and I’m saying this as a player who plays a character who has some of the slowest dashes in the game.
st.hp hitbox is fine. The hitbox extends past his hurtbox by enough of an amount to not get tagged by all but the best of jumpins if timed properly. Is it as good as some other anti air normals? No, but thats because Honda has other options when charged and can also use his jumping normals as anti air.
Why block jumps that are predictable that you see when Honda is capable of anti airing them no problem? Maybe you just have crappy reactions.
Maybe you have to rely on those things, but I see Honda’s super landed at a higher rate than average in this game, so just maybe, just maybe he’s able to land it reliably.
Honda has a crappy sweep, other characters have crappy sweeps and nowhere near the amount of tools he has. I could find dozens of things in this game that are less “fair” than Honda not being able to knock people down reliably.
I don’t know, man. To use that Yun vs. Zangief match that somebody posted a couple pages back, it looked like Zangief was more afraid to move into command grab range than Yun. I pointed out the reasons for this before the video was posted and I think I was absolutely correct. It’s not just Yun either. There are so many get out of jail free cards that work against command grabs in this game and I laid out a number of them in a fair amount of detail.
HHS isn’t a mobility tool in SF4, though. You can’t use it to gain ground like you could in previous games. It’s strictly a pressure tool that’s used in combos now.
I don’t think normalizing dashes or focus attacks would hurt variety. A character’s style should take shape independent of universal mechanics like dashes and focus attacks with possibly a few exceptions like Makoto. I think that allowing some characters to, say, FADC into Ultra or use FADC to make risky special moves safe while others can’t is inherently unfair, but now we’re veering off into a discussion about the engine itself.
Standing fierce is basically the standing version of crouching fierce. It’s a ground poke with limited anti-air use. Honda doesn’t have a strictly anti-air poke like most of the cast of SF4.
Because blocking is the safest option when you’re playing a character with weak meterless anti-air.
Honda’s only safe anti-air options require EX meter. His other options are unsafe, which means you’re going to have to blow meter if you don’t want to eat something nasty. He’s a meter whore in this game.
Every character should have a usable sweep, though. That should be baseline.
So one game of a matchup, a matchup you don’t know is indicative of how good command grabs are in this game? okay.
so universal mechanics should be even, except when they shouldn’t be?
I meant walking jab xx hhs
do I have to like make a graphic of honda’s st.hp vs. common jumpins, and show how the red part of it overlaps the green part of other characters or something?
Why should every character have a usable sweep? Explain. Give me a reason beyond “that is what I prefer”
Like, I really want to see the argument for FAs and dashes being universal. Zangief and Makoto with the same dash speed, Balrog and Fei Long with the same focus attack, being able to FADC into every ultra in the game for full damage.
he also wont be terrible in AE. he smashed just about every low tier character for free in console super, and the nerfs make it so they can at least try and fight him. yes he will still lose his losing matchups, but there wont be too many low tier characters that suddenly beat him for free. just all those 6-4s are now mixed with 5-5s
Honda is a legitimately great character in SSFIV. Highest no meter footsie damage rate in the game + a great poke to land it off of. the ability to hold uf in a game that discourages jumping generally + the second highest no meter jump in damage in the game? That alone is legit.
If people wanted to argue about AE Honda, i’d be like whatever, but discounting super Honda after the results he’s put up combined with his tools is literally asinine.
I think I liked SRK more when I wasn’t one of the better players actively posting.
Hmmm, results honda put up? You mean top 8 mike ross finishes? Surely not honda beating up on low tiers on xbl.
Like someone else said and ross would agree, Honda might unequivocally be the most overrated character in super. No one said he’s shitty, but the cheese and wine over him was nearly same as SF4 gat.
Henry Cen got top 8 at Evo2k10 as well as Mike Ross. Thats two hondas in top 8 with a character that is underplayed relative to their executional requirements and strength.
I forgot Mike Ross was the only Honda player though.
Also… how was this relevant to the discussion. Honda’s a really good, viable character in super. Why does Capcom Unity whining have shit to do with SRK? I’m not whining. I love Honda.
Japanese thought super Honda was a beast, most Americans think that super Honda was a beast.
Mike Ross undersells Honda. Need to find the interview where he admits he is high tier. It’s after he’s played AE.
Mike Ross complains about everything Honda-related, though. He wants Adon’s wake-up timing, C.Viper’s mix-ups, Fei-Long’s damage off hit confirms, Chun-Li’s backdash, etc. He even joked that him constantly calling Honda bad jinxed him and now Capcom actually made him bad to spite Mike lol.
Then again, it seems to be a common trend for players to complain that their character of choice isn’t that good.
