This is a rather bold claim to be making months before home console release friend.
I hope im wrong, really.
How so? Judging by those Japanese tournament results it is the truth.
AE is basically split into 2 groups and it’s kind of balanced inside each group:
The tournament worthy group:
Akuma feilong Twins Makoto Sagat Abel Viper (you can add zengief if it’s a team tourney)
The play for fun group:
The rest.
So what makes Fei top tier this time around? He lost his H. chicken wing invincibility and got some buffs on his normals… Is it his bad match-ups getting nerfed that pushed him to the top?
As a Fei player, I can’t wait to play AE
It’s like you guys are just trying to troll me. How do you guys not get that the majority of the world’s best have had access to AE for months?
Also how on earth are people still crying about Abel’s U2? It was always worse than U1 in most matchups.
Nothing pushed him to the top, he is top tier in Super. He only got a minor nerf in AE and his bad matchups are now better. Fei long is now the best character in the game imo.
Pretty much, except I think abel doesn´t belong with the big guys in AE.
Right, cause the only thing that matters is tournament results when you are talking about tier lists and there’s nothing like individual player’s skill that comes into play in tournaments, just character strength.
And the reason why Honda wasn’t ripping up the tournament scene is because of how bad designed he was: extremely strong offense and defense, but with almost no tools against characters who could zone him out. I play him as a secondary and I know how dumb he is. You can play most of the matchups with half your brain into coma and still be a pain in the ass for the other player (I think he’s fun to play though).
In AE I think they nerfed him too much, cause they just toned down the clearly OP stuff (plus some other stuff that didn’t need to) and gave him nothing new at all to deal with his already bad matchups.
I disagree: imagine if they did this from vanilla to super. If they kept Sagat and Akuma as they were and gave the other characters tools to fight bullshit with just more bullshit. What a fun game we’d have.
personally I prefer a game where there is no “S tier”, 10 or so high tiers plus some mid tiers and a bunch of shitty characters (I don’t think Super has many though), than a game with more than half the cast “viable”, but 2 or 3 characters that are clearly better than the rest.
Anyway, I still don’t know what to think about AE: I’m mostly optimistic, I played it a few times and I like it, but I agree that the twins are definitely OP…hell, you don’t even need to play it to know that dive kick + good command throw is a dangerous combination just by itself in this game. Add DPs, good ultras, good supers, big combos, the cheapest way to build meter ever seen and a lot of other shit and you clearly have 2 pretty strong characters.
Aren’t we also the same community who claims that it takes at least a year or so for solid tier lists to materialize? Are we going to discount the contributions of the entire Western fighting game communities to AE’s potential development?
And it wasn’t that Abel’s U2 was too GOOD, it was just stupid. Fire and forget more or less. Any idiot could use it effectively, hence its nickname “Brainless”.
2 years ago it might be true but with today’s communication technologies such as live stream / youtube / twitter / etc it takes way easier to figure things out as long as you know how to search.
I suppose you misspelled Marvel.
People is the US do not really play the same characters as Japanese players, and then you have the rest of the world.
And streams/videos only allow you to see what other players have discovered, forming an opinion without proper access to the damn game yourself is stupid. For example, E.Ryu and Oni barely have had any proper usage. But you decided tehy are useless already.
Finally, no matter how fast ‘tiers’ are formed, what is ‘tournament’ capable is 90% the player and 10% the character. For all the ‘tier talk’, most of the characters people called top in various tier lists in SSF4 did not finish first in SSF4 tourneys by a longshot, with high/mid-high tiers getting up there most of the time.
Finally, there was no single unified tier in SSF4, nor will be in AE.
Feel free to be a Nostradamus and predict around which characters the entire tourney scene around the world will revolve.
It is possible to create a tier list that most would agree on for SSF4 if you don’t worry about the order that you list the characters.
High Tier: I am not surprised that you won.
Mid Tier: I am surprised that you won.
Low Tier: You won’t win.
The game was balanced enough that it was impossible to establish an ordered list.
AE should be different at the highest level considering the content of this interview:
Shoryuken - Ono Says SSF4 Arcade Edition is “Purposely Unbalanced”
Yun is the best character in the game. It was designed that way.
Except many people say Fei Long is better.
And there are characters almost as good in AE as Yun/Fei, that one could say ‘not surprised you won’.
And then you have mid tiers and low tiers as well, with that logic.
So, same shit.
And ‘best character’=! unbeatable character, regardless.
This thread is probably giving you a headache. Suggestion:stop reading it. haha.
Also this. Abel picks U2, I think “thanks for picking the bad ultra”
I’m not surprised you won is getting smaller.
I think that this is using the Japanese character names (vega = dictator).
4?17???
01?//umehara//?yun?//BP/145,957/U.MASTER
03?//kazunoko//?yun?//BP/122,098/G.MASTER
04?//MDR//?yun?//BP/103,295/G.MASTER
05?//saachan//?yun?//BP/81,405/G.MASTER
10?//kindevu//?yun?//BP/70,089/G.MASTER
14?//hatigasirasan//?yun?//BP/65,165/G.MASTER
22?//banbaban//?yun?//BP/58,317/G.MASTER
26?//maakun//?yun?//BP/56,454/G.MASTER
29?//tiger//?yun?//BP/56,013/G.MASTER
32?//EXbean//?yun?//BP/54,443/G.MASTER
38?//ooaaru//?yun?//BP/53,053/G.MASTER
49?//FU?K_YUN//?yun?//BP/48,226/G.MASTER
54?//nen//?yun?//BP/47,425/G.MASTER
64?//Ice Sword wo motu otoko//?yun?//BP/45,560/G.MASTER
72?//doikun//?yun?//BP/44,559/G.MASTER
97?//mayokara(card name?uryo)//?yun?//BP/42,119/G.MASTER
02?//mago//?feilong?//BP/122,929/G.MASTER
08?//food//?feilong?//BP/71,100/G.MASTER
17?//Radiowave//?feilong?//BP/62,191/G.MASTER
18?//naruo//?feilong?//BP/60,732/G.MASTER
44?//Suropuu//?feilong?//BP/49,300/G.MASTER
53?//Ryokke//?feilong?//BP/47,520/G.MASTER
67?//mizoteru//?feilong?//BP/45,371/G.MASTER
77?//sin Aojiru guile//?feilong?//BP/43,869/G.MASTER
90?//NIGOU//?feilong)//BP/42,834/MASTER
06?//Michael tan//?ken?//BP/80,246/G.MASTER
23?//??A?F?//?ken?//BP/58,247/G.MASTER
42?//Kichijoji ken//?ken?//BP/50,914/G.MASTER
47?//momochi//?ken?//BP/48,597/G.MASTER
61?//wao//?ken?//BP/45,913/G.MASTER
87?//bon//?ken?//BP/42,944/G.MASTER
07?//nemo//?yang?//BP/74,686/G.MASTER
13?//?ojisan?//?yang?//BP/66,147/G.MASTER
40?//ACQUA//?yang?//BP/51,829/G.MASTER
59?//hisaya//?yang?//BP/46,011/G.MASTER
63?//ikari oyaji//?yang?//BP/45,587/G.MASTER
66?//kazunoko//?yang?//BP/45,375/G.MASTER
70?//Dai_Chan//?yang?//BP/44,723/G.MASTER
74?//ajaoe//?yang?//BP/44,479/G.MASTER
98?//kindevu//?yang?//BP/42,107/G.MASTER
100?//SAE//?yang?//BP/42,074/G.MASTER
09?//ikoma devil//?vega?//BP/70,429/G.MASTER
12?//syungoku neurosis//?vega?//BP/66,603/G.MASTER
80?//chichimonda honda//?vega?//BP/43,503/G.MASTER
82?//rau.ru.kuruze//?vega?//BP/43,224/G.MASTER
11?//iyo//?ibuki?//BP/68,495/G.MASTER
15?//nekojita//?abel?//BP/64,355/G.MASTER
57?//makky//?abel?//BP/46,447/G.MASTER
16?//sekiganryu//?ryu?//BP/63,425/G.MASTER
19?//hisyou//?sagat?//BP/60,259/G.MASTER
24?//bonchan//?sagat?//BP/57,274/G.MASTER
25?//RF//?sagat?//BP/57,161/G.MASTER
43?//gati homottun//?sagat?//BP/49,313/G.MASTER
62?//hanamaruki//?sagat?//BP/45,787/G.MASTER
71?//hamaa//?sagat?//BP/44,591/MASTER
79?//?katuo?//?sagat?//BP/43,511/G.MASTER
89?//super santaroman//?sagat?//BP/42,890/G.MASTER
91?//ooaaru//?sagat?//BP/42,771/G.MASTER
20?//amiyu//?gen?//BP/59,008/G.MASTER
21?//wa75842//?makoto?//BP/58,849/G.MASTER
73?//momochi//?makoto?//BP/44,496/G.MASTER
27?//dath//?C.viper?//BP/56,195/G.MASTER
39?//kyabetu//?C.viper?//BP/52,304/G.MASTER
41?//UD?//?C.viper?//BP/51,696/G.MASTER
45?//uryo//?C.viper?//BP/48,694/G.MASTER
52?//HYDE//?C.viper?//BP/47,558/G.MASTER
83?//tonpy//?C.viper?//BP/43,181/G.MASTER
93?//dasimaki//?C.viper?//BP/42,526/G.MASTER
28?//uryo//?sakura?//BP/56,088/G.MASTER
48?//dunhill//?sakura?//BP/48,236/G.MASTER
30?//YHC-mochi//?dhalsim?//BP/55,279/G.MASTER
31?//TOKIDO//?gouki?//BP/54,890/G.MASTER
96?//eita//?gouki?//BP/42,224/G.MASTER
99?//Yumemiru chansons Ningyou//?gouki?//BP/42,087/MASTER
35?//CANTONA//?zangief?//BP/53,234/G.MASTER
78?//itabasi zangief//?zangief?//BP/43,558/G.MASTER
92?//maho syoujyo zangitan//?zangief?//BP/42,590/G.MASTER
36?//-R-//?M.bison?//BP/53,225/G.MASTER
37?//taku?ratio4//?blanca?//BP/53,119/G.MASTER
50?//NISHIKIN//?blanca?//BP/47,595/G.MASTER
55?//chari//?blanca?//BP/47,333/G.MASTER
60?//SP??K?//?blanca?//BP/45,973/G.MASTER
46?//kojiKOG//?T.hawk?//BP/48,606/G.MASTER
51?//momochi//?cody?//BP/47,574/G.MASTER
86?//francejin//?cody?//BP/42,956/G.MASTER
56?//SHINCHAN//?adon?//BP/46,970/G.MASTER
88?//mukii//?adon?//BP/42,914/G.MASTER
58?//category F//?cammy?//BP/46,437/G.MASTER
94?//Odin SIN//?cammy?//BP/42,424/G.MASTER
65?//Tao PaiPai//?rufus?//BP/45,558/G.MASTER
95?//sekoi?bakizei//?rufus?//BP/42,283/G.MASTER
68?//torimesi//?dhalsim?//BP/45,370/G.MASTER
69?//pipin//?dhalsim?//BP/44,742/G.MASTER
75?//Y24//?chunli?//BP/44,185/G.MASTER
76?//reiketu//?barlog)//BP/44,062/G.MASTER
81?//kindevu//?seth?//BP/43,265/G.MASTER
84?//akimo//?honda?//BP/43,009/G.MASTER
85?//akimo//?dj?//BP/42,975/G.MASTER
I think that’s actually a pretty good look at what I consider the tiers. While in a vacuum I’d say that the game is relatively balanced, I’d say in the real world its balanced around chars who can fight yun/yang well. I didn’t wanna believe it before, but these two have offensive and defensive capabilities way outta whack with the rest of the cast.
I think Evil Ryu will make some noise down the road. He has incredibly high damage output and builds meter very quickly. We’ll have to see how matchups pan out of course but he sounds good on paper.
Tourney results arent the end all be all, but lets not act like its totally irrelevant. No one says a character needs to win a tourney to cement his tier rank but bet your ass “OP” characters will make noise and you will have to go through one in upset fashion to win yourself, maybe 2 or 3 if the character is really good and heavily used like a Boxer. Like you said Honda is mostly “free” to good zoning which is why Mike Ross laughs when Honda and OP are used in the same sentence. If the character was so braindead, should have been a whole lot more honda whoring even with his bad matchups.
Lesser of 2 evils
Most of the cast with frustrating tools > than handful of characters with dumb crap. Sure sagat needed damage adjustments big time, but did he deserve everthing else?
Agreed may not be the “FG of the year” making a street fighter game teter on the edge of “mahvel-ness”, but I just cant imagine the the same level of complaints for AE’s Holy trinity if characters got to keep their tools. Damage and meter adjustments were all that was really needed. sf4 characters need to get better, not worse.
Welcome to street fighter 4: if you cant beat um, join um edition.
He doesn’t build meter any faster than Ryu or Akuma when I played him.
Either way, it’s mostly Yun that is causing problems. Can you beat Yun? If not, you are in trouble. Fei Long, Ken, Sagat and C.Viper are the only characters that can actually make Yun legitimately scared and force him to adapt to the opponent’s game instead of him just running over you like a bus. Makoto can challenge Yun on the basis of her extreme damage but she’s such a hard char to use you won’t see her much.
Secondly, taking away Zangief’s EX Green Hand knockdown is a nerf no doubt about it. Now if the EX Green Hand left Gief at like +3 that would be better. As it is right now Gief can’t really do anything about the long backdashes of Yun and Yang. Vangief sent Justin Wong to Losers in EVO 2010 because of the EX Green Hand knockdown, especially in the final round. Can you imagine that match without the knockdowns?
Honda’s defense is overrated in SF4. He lost his standing fierce anti-air chop from SF2 and jab heabutt doesn’t have full invulnerability frames on startup anymore so it’s trash anti-air. I think it’s getting even worse in AE, but I’m not positive on that. Honda can be jumped at all day until he gets meter.
On the offense side, his Ochio is nerfed to hell. I mean, 5-frame startup and almost the same range as a regular throw? Trash. His standing roundhouse no longer knocks down and he has the WORST sweep in the game. It’s useless. You’ll never see it being used, ever. This is ironic because Honda used to be the master of trip (he had 5 trips in pre-ST SF2).
That leaves EX headbutt and slap combos. That’s literally all he has that could be considered remotely ‘overpowered’ and his fierce slap combo is getting damage nerfed in AE. Hell, EX headbutt doesn’t even go through fireballs like the Blanka and Balrog variants.
Honda has no FADCs outside of slap shenanigans and no way to juggle or combo into ultra 1, which doesn’t have full fireball invulnerability like other similar ultras. ultra 2 has piss poor range.
His focus attack and dashes are garbage. No range at all.
Mike Ross does good with Honda because he’s a good player, not because of the design of Honda in SF4, which is massively flawed. Easily the most overrated character in SF4.
Speaking of Makoto v Yun, I think that’s a fairly even matchup. She can punish his backdashes well. If he’s backdashing towards the corner, EX Hayate to LP Fukiage to EX Tsurugi is going to make him think twice about that nonsense. I forsee the match being very even, mostly about who can build and keep momentum.