While I was about to agree with the premise of the thread, the OP simply comes across as whinging about the game being too hard.
why the hell should they remove crouch tech? throws are already ridiculously strong as it is, and crouch teching carries significant risk at high level.
I played SSFIV for 2 months and gave up on it, the things i wanted to do i couldn’t at that time eventhough i practied my ass off. It was too frustrating, especially on a pad. Tried Ibuki(main at that time) trials on pad and couldn’t finish them, couldn’t even do cr.lpx2, cr.lk xx special with Cody. It was never explained that the last hit of a chain needs to be linked. Charging, what is that? Crouch teching, what is that? Why does SRK always beat EVERYTHING, invincibility frames, what is that? Hard or soft knockdowns and quickrising, what is that? Why can’t i block when he’s jumping over me, i’m blocking! etc etc Biggest thing that frustrated me was doing links, even 3 frame links i found beyond frustrating and fadc combos. On top of that i played on a pad… Gave it another go with AE and also got an arcade stick. Best thing was when i got a training buddy who helped me grasp core concepts and helped me learn Cody, the perfect character for grasping the fundamentals.
For people who have played fighting games before, mainly previous SF titles it is easy to pick up. People who never touched a FG before in their life they might resort to doing random stuff, works for a while until they hit a road block, better players. At that point you’ve never visited SRK, or seen tutorial videos by VesperArcade or something, shit that would have helped in improving you gradually. I agree that expenansive tutorial modes nee to be incorporated in fighting games, not just a challenge mode and “do this”. They give no reason what concepts are being taught and how to apply those and above all why.
KI is doing an amazing job with their DOJO and hopefullly this becomes the standard.
MK9 is easy execution wise…mostly, as a beginner you were not fighting the controls but the opponent, unlike street fighter.
It took me a long time to peform the things i wanted to perform in the game and links are probably one of my favorite things to do SSFIV:AE, but i HIGHLY doubt the majority of people are going to spend as much time learning basic SSFIV concpt as alot of people here on SRK have done. I’m for lowering the entrance barrier for beginners in fg’s…mainly excecution portion for performing the most basic of combos as that puts people off the most.
there’s a lot i hate about this game but most of those things are precisely what makes it an easier game for beginners and eases them into it without getting rid of some of the harder things to master which keeps the game interesting and you playing for years to come. 5f reversal windows, mash-happy shortcuts, shitty blockstrings, slow ass walking/dashing, the fucking ultra system, etc…
as much stupid shit as there is in this game i still like to play it because SF offers something that no other series does and i keep coming back for more. not every game has to have the same standards and many techniques are actually glitches from past games. SF is a game where the barebones matter most and i hope it stays that way. just play the game for a bit and you get a feel for it. you don’t need everything spelled out for you like you’re a game designer. explaining hit stun, block stun, links, etc… is like explaining those same elements in any other videogame. it’s more important in this game sure, but that shit is mad boring to beginners and would lessen their interest in the game imo. once they take more of an interest in the game then those things become important but you can still figure it out for yourself and that’s part of the fun.
Whilst these aren’t my specific issues with SF4, I’d suggest giving SFxT a try. It satisfies both ends of the spectrum; My non fg friends were able to chain combo to their hearts content and it satisfies my need for execution flashiness.
What fighting game has a manual that tells you how to do everything in the game, and has all the info on what’s going on “under the hood” available? To get better at the game you have to practice, you have to research, and you have to learn, on your own. It’s really convenient that there’s this thing called the internet.
I agree that the game is incredibly difficult for new players to get into without feeling handicapped. I’ve tried, unsuccessfully, to get a few friends to play the game with me but they’ve all quit.
SF4 would be way more easy to accept if it was purely a ‘hardcore’ game design, but it’s a game with hardcore difficulty and lots of braindead system mechanics. If Capcom is going to have simple hit-confirm combos that difficult to execute, why then have the following?
-ultras
-massive reversal window
-crouch-teching resulting in a low attack
-extended hitstun on jump-in attacks
-large number of moves with invincible frames
-slow game pace and jump speeds
Just make a game that’s hardcore and keep it that way, or make one that’s easier and keep it that way, or do both. Right now it’s just a strange mix. I still really like the feel of the game, which is why I keep coming back to it every once in a while, but some of the design decisions have left me scratching my head.
I feel like far too many posts in this thread are aggressive, you guys should step back, you shouldn’t have to defend fighting games on a forum dedicated to fighting games, everyone is here for the same reason, we like fighting games. So when someone makes a post (even if it is slightly misleading with a false title) that’s negative towards a popular franchise you don’t need to come in all sword and board.
Is OP wrong that competitive SFIV isn’t explained at all first-party? No.
OP has even said he likes that SFIV is hard, so all of the posts that boil down to “don’t whine, put in the work” shouldn’t exist.
Now, should capcom explain SFIV in-game? Do they owe this to someone who bought their game? Conventionally yes, but admittedly it’s not so simple for fighting games.
Now a lot of you are saying it’s not Capcom’s job to teach 25 years of 2-D fighters, however I would argue that all the oldschool knowledge of fighting games (fundamentals) such as footsies are inherently understood.
The premise of a fighting game is clearly to hit them without getting hit, so footsies don’t need explaining do they? As you play you’ll learn the distances of your character and popular characters you run into while playing just as you grind out games.
However a lot of things like one frame links, and how to preform the trials isn’t clear at all, in most games when they ask for a sequence of moves you just mash out the inputs as fast as possible, hence OP’s issue with links.
A lot of arguments coming from you guys also boils down to “in the arcades there was no online tutorials” well this isn’t back then, SFIV is NOT SF2 and none of us are Valle pumping quarters into the hottest box in the arcade, and capcom has to compete against more now than ever before. So it’s in capcom’s best interests to make SFIV the most accessible, which means teaching these systems and explaining links.
Namco sort of solves this with videos in their games, even SC2 let you watch a video of a correct special input, so why can’t capcom do the same? For example if one of the trials was a B&B it could show what the sequence looks like and building on this, it would be excellent to show the input during the sequence thus giving a much more clear explanation of timing.
I also see a lot of praise for Skullgirls for its in depth tutorial, however skullgirls doesn’t explain any combos, but instead
the fundamental mechanics behind each character and tag-team MvC style games.
So the question is how should capcom train players, maybe not in ultra, maybe in SF5. I’m sure we all would love ultra to
be a huge success and grow the FGC significantly, but if we approach ultra with even the most microscopic amount of pragmatism it will be extremely evident that this won’t be the case.
Truthfully I believe capcom should be putting in the work to inform people how they need to put in the work, but frankly I’d be happy with them telling people to research B&Bs, FADC combos. If I’d be so naive as to ask for them to suggest a site or two that would be great, but frankly the best way is a composite of sites which could change dramatically as the years go on.
Doesn’t matter if they add tutorials. scrubs will probably whine about the tutorials being too hard. Like when Skullgirls PC version released, there were massive complains from people who couldn’t do a DP motion or ABC->Super combos.
Thread title is inaccurate for the content of the thread (Missing an ‘easymode’ does not equal shitty game design). Not only that but the OP does just come across as wanting his hand held to get better rather than doing what we’ve had to do for years, which is research and practice. Now I’m more than willing to admit that I’m probably worse than the OP at SFIV in general as I’m new to SFIV in general (inoright), but in no way do I want to be led along nicely being told how my combos should be strung together, I want the joy of finding my own way and having that eureka moment like I did in previous games.
Now on the other hand If they find some way to incentivise getting better that would be awesome. Something like SF EX+Alpha, a series of increasingly difficult challenges with cosmetic rewards or fun extras. That way, you want to get better and the game encourages you to do so, but in a way where you still have to do most of the legwork yourself. But fighting games don’t need tutorial modes, the only one I ever actually bothered with was the SF EX+Alpha and that was just for the extras. If you are willing to bash a game’s design because you can’t get good at it but then bring up games like MK9 as shining examples of good game design, then I think that says more about your willingness to learn and attention span than anything.
I’d hate to see what you think of KoF’s entry level.
SF2 and SF4 are different games. you do not need 20 years of experience to grasp them either. you see the game as something steep, yet you do not see it for what it is meant to be:an enjoyable game. like you did with SF2.
do I need to watch hundreds of videos and practice hundreds of hours for this? certainly not. I also doubt you’ll put your gf into that kind of torture…
I even enjoy more playing some older fighters on my dusty Dreamcast with my bro and using that unergonomic pad as well, instead of playing them on PC or online.
Use that game to express yourself and use your brain. screw 1-2 frame links. they’ll come with time. or they may never come and you may discover something else and better in the process.
A lot of players have no idea of Garou:MOTW AB cancel combos either. Still, that game can be very enjoyable even without that.
Same for The Last Blade 2.
I played Virtua Fighter 3tb on the DC, which has only a simple training mode. I guess this is one of the reasons that game is hated. Though in VF4 the original creator wasnt involved in its production.
Plz do post ur findings, I’d love to know and I’m not the only one.
Nsc is correct, this is something I’ve stated several times before. Simply show an example of the trial being performed successfully, so u have an idea of the timing. This would be cheap and easy to implement.
i’ll post it within the next few days; i got my hands tied with real life. it needs to be organized and stuff, but here’s a taste of what’s coming:
cammy: 56 times used, 21 players, won 12 times
chi-rithy 13
k-brad 12
lpn 4
xiao hai 4
alioune 3
popi 2
banbaban 2
kindevu 2
dakou 2
cuongster
sanford kelly
aziz
happymedicine
ryan hart
breno_fighters
lordxsaka
cd jr.
y.
sako
nuckledu
bokkin
this is how many times cammy has reached top 8/16, how many times she won a mojr, who used her and how many times she was used since may 2012.
i’ve also got which players got first place and how many times with each character they’ve reached 1st place with.
I think what I am about to say echos what others have said. I think the core mechanics of the game are fine, where capcom dropped the ball was with a tutorial mode. Thank god for Vesper Arcade’s SSF4 4 hour tutorial. If you want new/more players then you got to teach people how to play the game. Fighting games by design are some of the hardest games to play and I think it should be that way.
The game won’t accept the command if the player took that example literally, this is not MK.
You need to do a fluid motion connecting those directions, hence the arrows the game utilizes.
“They’re changing almost nothing about the engine. Nothing like [example of adjusting engine]”
I’m not commenting on whether crouch techs are good/bad whatsoever, I’m just using it as an example of changing the game engine.
This is why I would sooner recommend SFxT, P4A or Injustice to someone new to the fighting game scene rather than SF4 or KoF XIII.
SFxT, while it does have an okay tutorial to walk you through the game mechanics, the chain combos are easy enough to do that you can do moderate damage without having to memorize motions. And the gems can be used to balance things out, like if you have a friend who plays really reckless to recommend defense gems, or someone who plays really slow character to try out speed gems.
Injustice is a tad harder to get into, since you have to memorize 2-3 button combinations to do some decent damage. And the overall movement of characters takes some time to adjust to. But a lot of the cast have fairly similar combinations, with minor tweaks here and there. And the tutorial is quite nice, and a solid way to ease you into the more unique game play that Injustice has going for it.
P4A is a game I really do like to hold up as a gateway fighter. The tutorial is really in-depth, the story mode actually tells a story, with it averaging about 20-30 hours in length, and it also has a chain combo system by hitting just one button. It may seem ‘cheap’ or ‘simplistic’ to more seasoned players, but that’s a great way to let someone in to fighting games.
‘See all this cool stuff you can do? If you can do that with just one button, imagine what you can do with four!’
Of course, this is the opinion of a dude that got into the fighting game scene with SSF4. So take it as you will.
KOF entry level is kinda good, actually. They have a tutorial on how to do stuff including cancels (though they don’t explain the difference between a cancel and a link), the movelists actually explain what all the symbols mean, the first trials show pretty OK BnB’s and have a demo play feature to show what it’s supposed to look like. Plus most of the game’s combos are cancels.
It’s strict, yes, and fast, but it’s not like they threw one-framers in there for the lulz and never explained shit.
Sf4 and all its incarnations are ass, I’ll stick to cvs2, 3s, st…until I see what the eventual sf5 is like.