Just noticed this comment. Who was it towards?
You 
How so? I think it is bad manners to call people nuts without justifying it.
Regards
Gecko
Guile and Gouken are the maybe the only matches I use ex oga… to go through their fireballs and hit them from the back. It really depends on their spacing but they rarely expect it, especially Guile.
A million reasons.
Guy’s target combos and special moves push his opponent into the corner, which sets up his ambiguous cross up/elbow drop mixup. Both lead to full damage bnbs and TC resets. Including bushin flip resets. If you do happen to block his mixup, his strings are mostly safe and do good chip damage. He can frame trap gen into non-existence anywhere on screen, but he especially destroys Gen in the corner. If Guy gets a knockdown in the corner, he can sit at his maximum s.mk range and spam it without punishment. His combos do high stun and allow him to continue pressing and mixup. Run-stop blockstrings aren’t so bad if you can throw them soon enough… but he can also mix in ex tatsu.
Good Guy players wont spam slide from an unsafe distance, unless they do it like Ryu players during footsies. If they see you poking with S.mk or S.hk, they will punish whiff with slide. Run-slide is mostly used when Guy has the meter to FADC backdash. It allows him to get into footsie range for free, and his backdash is very very good.
Sure you can block his elbow drop low, but tell me how that helps at all? You’re still going to take a blockstring afterward that you can’t do much about because of his 3f c.lk.
I wouldn’t focus him at all since his strings involve TCs and end in hozanto… both of which will break armor.
In super, you used to be able to roll pressure him for free but now he has his 3f c.lk to punish with c.lk s.mp hozanto. His c.lk also makes his crouch tech OS more dangerous.
c.mk, s.hk, and c.mp are all extremely effective AAs against gen, elbow drop trades or beats out reversals clean, U1s is too slow to catch elbow drop feints so he can bait it all day, elbow drop beats U2 crane A2A, gekiro lk trades with elbow drop and loses to bushin flip, he can bait ©cr.hk, he has ex run-slide to take advantage in footsies, he has easy ultra hit confirms, good safe jump options, his ex reversal is good, he can kara his overhead for additional bushin mixup.
In general, bushin flip throw allows him to move across screen with impunity. You can’t really do anything about it, and if you try, you’ll most likely eat shit. His ex bushin flip is also a get out of jail free card. Not to mention on wake up, he can hit you with bushin during your small period of standing animation… to avoid this you throw a crouching move… but you will most likely get CH or get put in blockstun by the elbow that follows, allowing for free pressure.
You can try to beat him by keeping him out, and that’s really the only way I can win against good Guy players. You cant go A2A, you can’t Oga, you cant Gekiro his elbow drops, he can bait your AA normals, his footsies outrange and are better than yours, his mixups lead to good damage and stun, he can score knockdowns pretty easily and take advantage of Gen’s poor reversals.
It’s a pretty bad match. I’d like to hear your take on it. Until then, you’re nuts. For Gen, it’s a 4-6 at best.
A wall of text does not win an argument. What is more important is that your judgement 4-6 vs my judgement 5-5: The difference? 1 point. And you are calling people ‘nuts’ over a judgement of 1 point?? I think it is you that is the nut job.
I am too gen (old) to be partaking in petty judgement calls like this. (pun intended).
Anyways your analysis is flawed and the main point that I would like to put across which is the notion that Gen has got the tools to stand head to head against Guy remains valid.
Regards
Gecko
It’s natural that everybody will speak from experience, but some people have more experience then others. Guy has a good answer for most of the things Gen can do, but Gen doesn’t have a good answer for most of the things Guy can do. Guy can really capitalize on Gen’s poor wakeup and is able to constantly break his momentum while he’s cornered. Guy does indeed have the upperhand against Gen.
When I wrote “4-6 at best,” I meant even 4-6 with your unrealistic optimism and unspecified toolbox of strategies that keeps it from being 7-3. I was hoping we could start a discussion on the knowledge I thought you had of the match-up that made you think it was even close to even. I didn’t get anything from your reply.
You asked “How so?” and the “wall of text” I gave you were VERY specific reasons why the match-up is nowhere near even. Claiming my analysis is flawed without telling me how what I said was wrong is not a way to win an argument.
I told you all the tools I know Gen has, and how they are ineffective in the match. I told you how effective Guy’s tools were in the match. You just claim there exist some “tools to stand head to head” without even sharing with the class.
Saying “nuh-uh” is not a good way to argue against what I’m saying. Please enlighten us on how to properly look at the match-up around without getting so defensive, since you seem to know so much about it.
3-7? Against Guy? Vanesco, this time you are wrong 
no offense but… you know c.mk beats elbow drops, right? You can hit him out of it, this means Guy’s best tool is practically useless against Gen.
Ok, Let me disagree with some of the stuff you said about Guy. I am not in the mood to do wall of text cos I’m feeling guilty for replying to this while I’m at work.
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'Guy has TC and things that push you into the corner and then set up big damage’
Well, I have played this game since vanilla and I still remember myself buying the Brady games manual the first day this game is out. Read the Guy section and guess what? The first thing the book said is that Guy’s tactic is to drive the opponent to the corner and conquer him. That is how Guy is meant to be played and the tools he has that goes with it. Bitching about his ability to do this doesn’t serve any purpose as Gen is not meant to be played like Guy. Since you know that is the name of his game you should try your best NOT to land yourself into that situation. -
'his strings are mostly safe and do good chip damage. He can frame trap gen into non-existence anywhere on screen’
I don’t care if his chip damage does a bit more damage than your roll chip damage. The more pertinent question is whether he gets to pressure you so tight that you have no chance to retaliate. I do not feel that Guy’s block string is nearly as scary as some other character’s such as Akuma. Furthermore there is nothing stopping you from applying your OWN block strings on Guy. Anywhere on the screen. -
'His combos do high stun and allow him to continue pressing and mixup.'
Gen also has got high stun combos that allow him to continue pressing and mixups. I hope you don’t need me to tell you that. -
'Run-stop blockstrings aren’t so bad if you can throw them soon enough… but he can also mix in ex tats.'
The dreaded ex-tatsu. You know what? I’m actually fine with that cos ex-tatsu is not FADC able. Which means if he actually hit you, he read you properly and properly ‘yomi-ed’ you. Nothing wrong with eating a hurricane kick cos the player got you figured out. If you block his ex-tatsu he is in real trouble. Yun’s Flying kick however will be a different case cos of the ridiculous travel distance but I digress. -
'Good Guy players wont spam slide from an unsafe distance, unless they do it like Ryu players during footsies. If they see you poking with S.mk or S.hk, they will punish whiff with slide. Run-slide is mostly used when Guy has the meter to FADC backdash. It allows him to get into footsie range for free, and his backdash is very very good.'
So you think Guy has got a better footsie than Gen? I really beg to differ. Guy’s walking speed is horrendous. Border on parkinsonism I think. Gen, old as he is can walk faster than Guy! How can a lesser moving character be better than a faster moving character in footsie? Why is Chun Li a better footsie character than Gen? Cos she is so damn fast! Sure he can slide and all but he will be taking a risk if he does so. You will have to up your game in footsie if you think Guy’s footsie is good.
Also so what if they can FADC their run slide? That is 2 Ex-bars. I think that is a fair trade. There is no one here stopping you if you want to FADC your roll…
And his back dash is good… Gen’s one is not too shabby either! I suggest you spam it a bit more it will be as good as spinach is to Popeye. Futhermore if you figure out that a Guy is particularly fond of back dashing; yomi him with and OS sweep and BANG! He is on the ground. (I think I demonstrated it in one of my scrubby videos)
Right. That is half your wall of text refuted. I shall complete the rest when ever. I reiterate. I do not think that Guy is bad. I just want to let you know that Gen has got enough stuff to give him a run for his money like what I normally do when I fight against any other Guy or the same BP/PP as me.
Regards
Gecko
Now to complete the debate:
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'Sure you can block his elbow drop low, but tell me how that helps at all? You’re still going to take a blockstring afterward that you can’t do much about because of his 3f c.lk.'
Quoted from Street11: ‘Never stand up when he cancels his normals into flip shenanigans. He cannot flip throw you when crouching, and he has tons of recovery frames when he doesn’t input anything. He will be left with only one choice: Elbow. c.MK gekiro that thing.’ -
'I wouldn’t focus him at all since his strings involve TCs and end in hozanto… both of which will break armor.'
Sorry, but I think Gen also has moves that armor break too. Does that stop a Guy from using focus? No one is asking you to use it during block strings. To disregard focus during a vs Guy match is lose a portion of your armamentarium against him. Also his drop elbow can be focused. Use some creativity here. -
'In super, you used to be able to roll pressure him for free but now he has his 3f c.lk to punish with c.lk s.mp hozanto. His c.lk also makes his crouch tech OS more dangerous.'
Being unsafe after a blocked roll is no different than being unsafe after a blocked running slide. No pain no gain son! -
'c.mk, s.hk, and c.mp are all extremely effective AAs against gen, elbow drop trades or beats out reversals clean, U1s is too slow to catch elbow drop feints so he can bait it all day, elbow drop beats U2 crane A2A, gekiro lk trades with elbow drop and loses to bushin flip, he can bait ©cr.hk, he has ex run-slide to take advantage in footsies, he has easy ultra hit confirms, good safe jump options, his ex reversal is good, he can kara his overhead for additional bushin mixup.'
Blatant jump in on Guy is asking for being AA. Similarly if a Guy blatant jump you his floaty jump will ensure that he will eat your slippers when you execute gekiro. elbow drops can be countered by crane c.hk at certain distance. If gekiro doesn’t work, EX-gekiro will I’m sure against elbows.
Easy ultra hit confirms… someone did say they say gen has probably the easiest hit confirm into super… then ultra!!! Beat that?
Safe jump options… I don’t know how to do it but I think there is a long essay somewhere around the forums detailing Gen’s Safe jump options. Would appreciate if someone can quote it for Vanesco here.
Ex Tatsu is very similar to EX-gekiro. The only losing part is that gekiro doesn’t autocorrect.
Kara-overhead? Gen has got come kara-throws too. Whats the big deal? -
'In general, bushin flip throw allows him to move across screen with impunity.'
The answer to that? ‘Drum roll…’ Gekiro!!! I have countered so many bushin stuff with gekiro that I think Nike should sponsor Gen instead of Guy. I haven’t seen any other AA that has a better attack angle and trajectory than gekiro against the bushin flip. Try to use it more often is only what I can suggest.
Rest of the other points are repeats and already addressed.
There you go. My take on the match up. Persistent self flagellating and insisting that other characters are much better serves no purpose other than massaging your ego when you do win. Anyways this is all in medical terms nothing more than just intellectual masteurbation. Show us some videos if Guy is causing you so much grief.
Regards
Gecko
Thanks for responding. Minus the ad hominem, this is a good way to have a discussion about a matchup.
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You miss the point. I wasn’t bitching about what he’s good at. I’m telling you that the design of Guy is to point out that it takes advantage of some of Gen’s weaknesses. Namely, Gen can’t deal with Guy’s corner pressure and the constant frame traps both build Guy’s meter and lead to big damage/mixup on hit. I’m not saying Gen should be able to do the same thing; I’m saying that Guy’s design is effective against Gen’s limited options.
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Your own blockstrings on Guy typically end in pushing him out of range with hands (which does no chip damage at all). Ending with roll is not viable, since now he has a reversal c.lk that opens up a hozanto combo on block. You and I differ in our opinion on who has better footsies, and I can accept that, but I feel that pushing him out of range with your strings allows for him to use his better footsies to win.
When I’m talking about footsies, I’m talking about properly spaced s.mk (which outranges everything Gen has), c.mk and c.hk slide that hit at max range so that it’s safe on block, s.mp, and his very good anti-airs.
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Gen cannot start these at footsie range without a jump-in or without blowing meter. Guy can.
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Take out what I said about the EX tatsus. It wasn’t my main point. Sure you can mash hands during the string or Gekiro, but it’s a big risk to take against CH’s and baits since we can’t FADC. Since Guy can punish the mashed out dp (which I see you do in most of your match videos) with a full combo that leads to both good positioning and pressure/mixup, I’d rather wait for the opportunity to not play like a scrub. Guy doesn’t NEED to ex tatsu because run-stop strings are sufficient.
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Sure the walk speed is important. Guy’s footsies lead to better damage and positioning than Gen though. Since the main footsie tools for Gen are s.mk>hands and cr.mp>hands (cr hp and s.hk are slow and punishable and), and his lead to BnB and knockdowns, I’d say Gen loses here too.
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You’re right. crane c.mk works very well too, but it both have to be read. He has a regular elbow drop as well that can be mixed in with his cross-up game on gen’s wake up. If it’s telegraphed from bushin flip, I agree, both c.mk are good. I wouldn’t autopilot it though because of long whiff recovery if he decides to j.mk instead.
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Unless you’re fighting a scrub, Guy’s elbow drop done sufficiently low is not punishable by FA. You’ll get him in blockstring, but you’ll either eat c.lk> bnb on dash forward or OS sweep on dash back. Or ex tatsu when you press buttons. When he doesn’t have meter in footsies, I’d FA sparingly but there’s hardly any good time to do it unless the Guy is sweeping or sliding constantly. TC will break it, c.mk will break it in close quarters, ex hozanto/tatsu and OS related to it. Just not a good idea.
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Run slide is a risk, but not so much of one if he has meter to fadc. He converts much heavier on his punish of blocked roll than our punish of slide fadc. If they’re doing stupid shit like slide without meter, then yes they deserve to be punished.
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If you’re spending meter on EX Gekiros against elbows, how are you getting super > ultra? I know the safe jump options. Problem is that Guy can mostly block low and keep an eye out to crouch tech until Gen pushes him back into footsie range (where I think he wins).
Maybe I should ask how you are getting in on Guy, and we can have a better talk about it.
When I said Kara-overhead, I meant kara-bushins from overhead. Sorry if I didn’t spell that out.
- I don’t know how you are landing non-ex Gekiros instead of getting thrown by bushin. I don’t know what Guy’s you are playing.
In any case, maybe it’s the particularly good Guy players I fight. Yeah, Gen’s kara throw is very good in this match. I just have trouble either getting in and staying in. If I do happen to inevitably get CH by a c.lk or knocked down, I can’t get him off of me without being extremely patient with his wake up games, safe-jumps elbow drops, endless damaginging frame-traps, and relentless corner pressure.
Thanks for the c.mk tip though. Nu and I were talking about it last night so I’m glad someone else confirms it works.
http://www.twitch.tv/offcast/b/291193623 This is the Guy I play most frequently against (1hr30min). I also fought Combofiend’s Guy very frequently before he turned to Yun. This is where my perspective is coming from. They’re the two best west coast Guy players, and probably some of the best in the US.
thanks bro. one love.
Also, Sorry guys. I’ve been slack on playing AE and updating stuff. Been a busy week. Will get on stuff. Remember if you need stuff added PM me.
i think gen has a slight disadvantage against guy, but footsies shouldnt be the issue. its that damn pressure if he ever gets going
I am very happy to receive differing viewpoints but to assert that other people are nuts in the first instance does not go down well with me.
In general most characters will find Guy threatening in the corner so really it is quite universal and doesn’t only just apply to Gen. Furthermore the position of your character and your opponents character in a match really shouldn’t feature too much in terms of character balance since this is really a very dynamic thing and vary from second to second. What is stopping you from pushing Guy into a corner on the other hand? So arguing that Guy is stronger at the corners are really quite a moot point.
Ending out of range post a hands block string may not be as bad as you think. At least you are pushing Guy back. So more ‘real estate’ for you? Not a good thing no? Yes you do lose some momentum but play your footsie game again! This game is not a one hit > corner >combo >you win situation. Patience can work out sometimes.
Don’t quote me on this and I’m too lazy to test it out myself but IF you really think roll is that important I have a sneaky suspicion that if you finish with an lp roll on block I think guy may not reach you with his lk. If someone know the best way to test this out please share the info.
Oh yes, I have just tested it on a training dummy and it seems like a blocked lp roll is safe the right distance. Can someone verify that?
Footsie game is how you want to play it. Mohammed Ali was dancing around his slower opponent like a butterfly. Take some inspiration from him? (since you are walking faster than Guy)
When you FA an elbow you can release it and then backlash. He will block and both of you will be in a neutral state. No one wins but no one lose either.
'Problem is that Guy can mostly block low and keep an eye out to crouch tech until Gen pushes him back into footsie range’
There is where you need to play the yomi game dear. No one can teach you that.
'Since Guy can punish the mashed out dp (which I see you do in most of your match videos) with a full combo that leads to both good positioning and pressure/mixup, I’d rather wait for the opportunity to not play like a scrub.'
Take it what you will, calling mashing dp cheap and scrubby and you feel that you should’t do it. That is utter bullshit. I don’t know if it is cheap or if you can buy it by the dozen. Mashing DP is a legit technique at the end of the day. When I mash it is not like I am pressing a macro button on a Logitech G19 Keyboard. I am mashing if manually onto my TE stick. Did EVO ban mashers from entering the tournament? It may not be the best tactic, it may not be the prettiest tactic but it is still a legit tactic. And this tactic happens to deal with frame traps very well! So I say get off your high horse and learn to do some ‘educated’ reversals. The whole idea is to mind fuck your opponent. If he/she knows that you will use it they will think twice about pressuring you so hard. Then the whole yomi business again.
And oh yes, the front page of SRK has a great article that eloquently addressed the issue of ‘randomness’ in gameplay. I strongly suggest you read it.
’ I don’t know how you are landing non-ex Gekiros instead of getting thrown by bushin. I don’t know what Guy’s you are playing.'
I have verified on my videos that on a good few occasions I have beaten the bushin flip with my gekiro. You see me mashing dp but you did not see the gekiro beating bushin. If you choose to have selective blindness there is nothing that I can do.
The guy video that you posted is very good no doubt. It would probably be better if you could post some of your play vs him so we can comment.
Regards
Gecko
I noticed this wasn’t noted in the front page, but it’s probably more likely that Messiah hasn’t gotten to it. You can focus fish to beat Ken’s f+mk. Ken can Kara cancel it, but he can’t FADC it or anything once it goes active, so if he’s trying to get in with f+mk, you can charge to a lvl2 fa and release to crumple stun him during his recovery. Leaving his only safe way to get in air-tatsus and jump-ins. I forgot yesterday (when a Ken was spamming f+mk), that Gen has an FA which a much better horizontal range than Balrog. :\
I personally find EX run slide, which can be + on block if blocked at later frames and now has much better hurtbox than a regular one, more annoying than slide FADC, which would be -4 at best (somewhat safe on back dash, still -12)
I have troubles with Guy as well. The main reason is because there isn’t a move that puts Guy in trouble as much as Gen getting in trouble for screwing up and ending up eating elbow (hit or block). It’s also pretty annoying when he stands at the max (or slightly more forward than max) range of Gen’s st.MK or cr.MP and FA absorb backdash run slide punish Gen’s hands cancel whiff. It doesn’t feel as bad as someone like Ken, but I wouldn’t exactly put this as even if someone with a skill level equal to me and has Gen’s matchup knowledge as much as I know about Guy fought me.
Just use it sparingly. Ken can spam Srk after a focused step kick. My Gen’s nuts got burnt by Ken’s flaming hands so much that I have to unlearn this tactic.
Regards
Gecko
i agree with Vanesco … guy is also a bad match up for the old man … i hate his c.lk ppl are mashing out his cr.lk when u try to frame trap them with s.mp and his pressure is just free FRAME TRAPS … if u try to tech throw u will eat free counter hits … why gen roll is -3 frame why after blocking !!! (CODY,GUY,SAKURA) 3 frames cr.lk beats alot of gen moves and rolls after blocking … shotos 3 frame shoryus beats Gen rolls and his overhead after blocking !!!
i dont know why CAPCOM they dont damn care about Gen moves !! they nerf him really bad in super … and in AE the just buff his Mantis stance … what about CRANE … we dont wont loops just give him some good things for his second stance !!!
Interesting viewpoint. The guy that you fight sounds like a monster. One frame punish lp.roll and FA back Dash to whiff mp hands and punish consistently? If you would show us some videos of u vs this guy will be very informative.
Regards
Gecko