SRK Tier Discussion OS XII

Awesome interpretation, BP. I do see a lot more potential in Santa now, but I still contend that being Jewish > Santa.

Muff used the God argument, but that doesn’t work. God has power, whether you believe in him or not, and often uses that power to kill non-believers (see: Noah’s Ark, Sodom & Gomorrah, Ten Plagues, etc.)

Santa has been proven time and time again to have no effect on non-believers. Santa never visited my house, not even to give me a lump of coal (which canonically he should do to all “naughty” children if he has the power). Thus, unlike God, who has the power to affect non-believers, Santa is pwnt by a fucking dreidel and some chocolate coins.

Also, I think BP might be giving Santa a little too much credit for psychic ability. He may know whether you’ve been naughty or nice, but I don’t remember anything saying he knows the specific things you’ve done. He just has a general sense of it. He’s more of a “naughtiness/niceness empath” than a true psychic.

…seriously.

There’s no way Steven Seagal should be allowed into this tiering. The man wears a girdle for christ’s sake

well in every x-mas special I have seen Santa ranges from old school pen and list to myspace/facebooklevel knowledge of your acts.

Google in its entirety can be possible I believe for the tiers. Will explain more later.

This is why none of the top tier has a blog.

…seriously.

I nominate PANDA…for you NEVER say no to panda

[media=youtube]SyRvzeNuqa4[/media]

panda doesn’t care if you just ate, or are sick, or if the guy next to you said no instead of you, or if saying yes will break your budget, or if you are highly lactose intolerant, or if you don’t require food to sustain life, or if you do or do not exist, or if eating panda cheese will KILL you…you say no to Panda and Panda appears from out of nowhere…and bad shit happens.

You have no choice but to submit and say yes to panda!

maybe so but what I mean is based on that Santa has adapted very well to the current times…and just because the top don’t have a blog doesn’t mean they cannot be tracked online period. Fan pages are rampant and if the those tiered don’t type out what they do everyday, someone else will for them.

You’re over-thinking things by trying to apply the laws of physics to how Santa does his job. It’s like trying to apply the rules of normal human rationality to how Jack Bauer does his job. It’s a pointless exercise. Santa is what he is. A jolly old white man who delivers presents to children who have been nice. He does this in one night traveling at near light speed. He sees you when you’re sleeping. He knows when you’re awake. He knows if you’ve been bad or good. Like I told quiche with regard to his Jewish person example, it doesn’t matter if some random African tribesman and his kids believe in Santa or not, Santa still has to keep a record of their deeds and sleep schedules. Santa needs to do this because, what if one day a group of missionaries arrives at the African village and converts the villagers to the Christian religion? Does that mean that Santa is suddenly unaware that little Zulu Billy sexually abused a monkey when he was twelve? No. Santa knows all his past deeds.

Secondly, someone being of a different religion and not believing in Santa is a pointless distraction from the main issue of tiering Santa, which is how Santa fares against Prep Time Batman. It’s isn’t about the little Jewish kid who doesn’t celebrate Christmas versus Santa. It isn’t about the African villager who who doesn’t celebrate Christmas versus Santa. Let’s stop with the distractions and get to the evidence. It’s about Santa, versus Prep Time Batman, a guy who is historically and definitively a person who celebrates Christmas:

Gentlemen:

batman309-2.jpg (image)




Silver Age Comics: The Christmas Stories, Part 4

So, let’s get down to the details of the match itself.


One thing is clear here: If Batman faces off against Santa in a theoretical matchup (a requirement for tiering), then Batman would be henceforth immediately classified as a Threat to Christmas by Santa. I cannot stress this enough. If Batman represents a Threat to Christmas, the entirety of Santa’s wrath will be brought down upon him. This will unlock Violent Santa, a Santa who will stop at nothing to eliminate the Threat to Christmas. Santa is obligated to execute his duties on Christmas, no matter what, and a loss against Batman would prevent Christmas from happening.

The bold argument above has a flaw in it.

Batman laying out a trap for Santa is impossible Bowling Pin. Please stop and think about it for one second and you’ll see how it’s impossible to Prep against Santa. Santa knows when Bruce is sleeping and awake. While Bruce is awake planting traps, Santa is making a list of all of them. You have given Bruce’s mind entirely too much power here, and for the wrong reason. It’s not that Bruce can train himself to set traps subconsciously such that Santa cannot observe him setting them. Even if Bruce taught himself to sleepwalk and set traps for Santa at the same time, it would not affect Santa’s ability to observe Bruce’s actions. Santa has two powers of Omniscience. 1. Santa can read your thoughts and judge your moral character. Santa can tell when you were naughty when you got a boner while looking at some woman who was not your wife while walking through the mall on your kid’s birthday. Secondly, once Bruce made the decision that he needs to set traps subconsciously to defeat Santa, Santa will already be made aware of the initial conscious decision to set traps for Santa subconsciously. Thus, Bruce’s initial decision to go into sleepwalk-Prep mode to eliminate Santa would be declared a Threat to Christmas, and would not work as a tactic against Santa. 2. Santa can see everything you do. So even if Batman was setting traps subconsciously (or while sleepwalking) Santa would still visually observe him setting the trap. Remember, Santa sees you when you’re sleeping or awake. It’s not only Santa’s mind-reading capabilities, it’s Santa’s visual-Omnipresence that makes it impossible to hide things from him. Santa is one of the few people/entities that Batman cannot Prep against. Even if Batman constructed an Adamantium room and locked himself in it to make plans for dealing with Santa, Santa could still see inside it.

Santa would already be aware of the C4 in the abandoned building, because he saw Bruce put it there. Bruce can only fight Santa on Christmas. It’s not like Batman can locate Santa’s North Pole workshop in the middle of August without Santa knowing that Batman is coming. Batman has to fight Santa on Christmas. How does Bruce ever catch Santa? Santa would deal with the C4 trap by dropping off an expert bomb-defusing team in a huge red satchel in Commissioner Gordon’s office with an note that reads, “There’s a huge batch of C4 in abandoned building C.” Or Santa could just walk into the building and start reading from his list. “Ho ho ho! Bruce Wayne, I see that a few days ago you set a C4 trap to blow me up to thwart Christmas”, and proceed to warp over to Bruce at the speed of light and punch him in the face, Laughing all the Way.

Batman is at a major disadvantage against Santa. All it takes is for one kid who has been nice all year to write Santa asking for Batman’s real identity and where he lives. And just like that, Bruce is outed. It gets worse. Once Santa has declared that Batman is a Threat to Christmas Santa can start handing out presents to Batman’s worst enemies regardless of their Naughty status. If any of Batman’s enemies asks Santa for a super weapon, or even for a simple piece of paper that has Batman’s real name on it, Santa will give it to them.

If Batman lured Santa into a field covered with hidden land mines, Santa would literally skip in between them, laughing all the way, because he saw where Bruce placed every single one of them! And about the C4, would that even work? We’re talking about a fat man in a red suit who can contort his figure to slide down a chimney of any size. Are explosives really going to hurt Santa, or are they just going to make him laugh? I’m going with the later. In fact, the whole idea of luring Santa into a trap or tricking Santa into his death is fairly absurd. I mean Santa is known to eat milk and cookies, right? So why can’t Batman simply lay out cookies and milk that are filled with deadly poison for Santa? Seems like a simple enough plan, right? Santa slides down Bruce’s chimney, eats the poison milk and cookies, and then collapses? No. A thousand times no. The addition of the poison to the milk and cookies constitutes a Naughty Act which Santa has already seen and written on his list. Before Santa even slides down the chimney he has already checked the list twice. It would go like this: “Bruce Wayne, you added poison to a batch of milk and cookies two hours ago which were meant for me. Mr. Wayne, you’ve been very naughty. If I die, who will deliver the presents on Christmas?” Bam, light speed Santa punch to the face.

  1. Batman can’t beat Santa by simply playing Scrooge and bah-humbugging Christmas. In that case, Christmas would continue and Santa would be totally unharmed. Santa wins by default.

  2. You can’t say that Santa represents some sort of “zeitgeist of the rich white man”, because the criteria of entering the top tier explicitly states that the character cannot be black! You guys made that rule up. Please see the weakness list in the 7th spoiler of this post: http://shoryuken.com/f3/srk-tier-discussion-os-xii-257989/index2.html#post9897865. Saying that Santa represents some sort of European colonialism, capitalism, or anything other than the pure Spirit of Giving is false. Being black is not a weakness in Santa’s worldview, but being Naughty is.

Final thoughts:

  • One must demonstrate that their character can battle Prep Time Batman to a standstill, or out-right beat him.
  • Prep Time Batman cannot Prep against Santa.
  • Thus, Prep Time Batman lacks the means to kill or subdue Santa.
  • Once a character begins a match against Santa, they are declared a Threat to Christmas.
  • Once Batman is declared a Threat to Christmas, all bets are off and Batman becomes the target of Santa’s vast array of powers.

All moot points. As I said to Bowling Pin:

The burden is on you quiche. Show how a Jewish Bruce Wayne beats Santa. A Jewish Bruce Wayne who decides to fight Santa still constitutes a Threat to Christmas. Also, as shown through evidence, Batman celebrates Christmas. So how would Santa be unaware that Bruce has converted to Judaism to win his match against him?

You’re also wrong about Santa not knowing the specific details of what you’ve done. It isn’t a “general sense” of your niceness/naughtyness. He makes a list, and checks it twice. The list has specific deeds listed on it. The list doesn’t say, “I get the general impression that John Wayne Gacy may be a bit naughty.” No. Santa has an itemized list of all of John Wayne Gacy’s victims.

Killed kid #1 on [date]
Killed kid #2 on [date]
Killed kid #3 on [date]
Killed kid #4 on [date]

And he does this for everyone. You being Jewish and not getting a lump of coal doesn’t mean that Santa didn’t see your naughty deeds. It just means that Santa has better things to do than drop in on naughty Jewish kids. Again, this is all a distraction from the main issue. Santa vs Prep Time Batman. Present your evidence in this match please.

p.s. You said:

Scrooge didn’t believe in Santa either, and he got hit with three different types of Ghosts and was converted into a believer. Explain that.

Edit: More:
http://meanjin.com.au/static/files/assets/87ce60ad/batman.jpg

http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Superman-Batman-Christmas.jpg

I don’t care for Santa because of all the times I’ve seen him fall down and sprain his fat ankles, and then someone else has to fill in for him to save Christmas.

If someone can step in on five minutes notice and do your job well enough that no one around the world knows the difference, how could you possibly be top tier?

Also, Santa is just God, nerfed.

God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

Santa is only omniscient, at best.

Even if Santa can see everything you do, how does that let him do anything about it? Knowing everything isn’t the same as being prepared for everything, or being able to stop everything.

So what Santa is watching Batman walk up to his workshop, and knows the whole time that he’s coming? What the fuck is Santa going to do? Lock his doors?

Batman will come in, fuck Santa up royally, and all Santa will be able to do is tell when Bats is being naughty or when he’s being nice. Since he’s being kicked and punched in the face at the time, it doesn’t seem hard to differentiate.

Also, since when can Santa move at lightspeed without his reindeer? No tools allowed.

Batman can deliver toys just as well as Santa:

Santa needs help carrying his heavy sack:

Also, in case you were wondering how Santa’s “Your parents died because you were naughty” ploy will play:

But Ender! How could Batman ever even get close enough to Santa to fight him?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2kjisMm3M9Y/R1OyKbEDVlI/AAAAAAAACIE/TZxOjwr_cX8/s1600-R/xmas8.jpg (there’s a big “no homo” attached to this, since Batman is just scheming)

Batman does not approve of Santa:

http://www.fightjamchicago.com/_/rsrc/1260426969079/upcoming-jams/santajla.jpg?height=292&width=320

Batman will serve Santa his own toys back:

Explore Eric Hall

Hide your elves, hide your toys:

And in case you think it can’t be done:

GTFO Santa. You suck.

I now completely understand why CrouchingTiger declared that most of you were dumb and that he’d start his own tiers syndicate: None of you are willing to follow the rules you’ve made! You make arguments that support your own entries and then abandon said logic as soon as a new character is introduced. It’s pathetic.

Just look at the hypocrisy on display here:

Protip jackass: Bruce Wayne got his fucking back broken by Bane and another guy took over as Batman without anyone noticing. That is cannon. How about you stop running your mouth long enough to apply your own standards fairly to new entries to the tier list?

Please stop rambling and read the definition of Omnipresence. Santa knows when everyone is asleep or awake. Santa knows if everyone has been bad or good. So, how is Santa not Omnipresent? Santa observes everyone’s actions at all times and records the moral standing thereof every second of every day. Santa records all these deeds on a list, which he checks twice.

If Santa can see everything you do, and you are trying to eliminate Santa by what you are doing, Santa will declare that you are a Threat to Christmas. For example. Look at the front page of GD. You’ll see that there is a “Secret Santa” thread sticky. Let’s say that Batman was about to login to SRK as an admin and delete that thread. Santa would be able to see that Bruce was about to become a Threat to Christmas and proceed to change the SRK admin password the minute Bruce thought about doing his Naughty deed. Batman deleting the “Secret Santa” thread would be a major Threat to Christmas, with many disappointments spread throughout the SRK community. Even if Santa deleted that thread, Santa would restore it from backup since Santa has every Secret Santa entry recorded on his List.

Bullshit. Since when could Batman carry an infinite amount of anti-Anything spray without his utility belt? Utility belt is to Batman as Reindeer and Sled are to Santa: Tools which are considered a given as personal effects which are implicit for doing the jobs that they care about doing which are fighting crime, and making Christmas happen, respectively. To say otherwise is pure nonsense. Batman has a job. Santa has a job. Batman constructed tools to do his job. Santa constructed tools to do his. There is no difference aside from your made-up gibberish.

You are just rambling aimlessly here. You haven’t provided a single piece of evidence that Santa is incapable of action against someone who constitutes a Threat to Christmas. Batman approaching Santa’s workshop with the intent to do harm to Santa is the equivalent of Santa waltzing into the Batcave with the intent to harm Batman. Both acts constitute a Threat to their Stated Obligations to Humanity. Batman needs to fight crime, if Santa tries to eliminate him, it is a threat to that Duty. Santa needs to make Christmas happen. If Batman tries to eliminate Santa, it is a threat to Santa’s Duty. This is the core of the matchup and no amount of rambling and nonsense from you or quiche can distract from the essence of this conflict. Batman stepping to Santa with the intent to do harm to Santa means that Christmas will not happen that year. Santa will simply not allow this.

Batman cannot lay a trap for Santa. This is my claim. You have yet to provide any evidence or a solid argument to disprove this claim. All you did was say that Batman could do Santa’s job, but that’s yet another claim you can’t prove or have yet to provide evidence for whereas Bruce has been put out of commission and another guy acted as Batman without anyone noticing. Again, your hypocrisy on full display. Santa’s abilities are well-known and speak for themselves. You still haven’t proven that Batman can Prep against Santa. You still haven’t proven that Santa is incapable of taking action against those who threaten Christmas. Scrooge was haunted by three Ghosts because he didn’t believe in the Christmas spirit. You haven’t explained how that jives with your claim that Santa is incapable of swaying disbelievers. Santa has hard evidence of shape shifting to fit into any chimney. You still haven’t provided any hard evidence that Batman is capable of injuring Santa in any way due to Santa’s super elastic properties.

Stick to your own rules. Stick to the matchup. It isn’t about who can do whose job, as proven by Bruce getting his back broken by Bane and having another guy take over. It’s about whether or not Santa can fight Prep Time Batman to a standstill. I have provided evidence that he can. Prove that Prep Time Batman can beat Santa.

It seems like the members of S.H.I.T. are just trying their hardest to push new entries away by jerking off PT Bats instead of actually weighing out the pros and cons of each entry. Since he’s PT Batman, it seems like they can just say “well, he’ll just bend time and space to blah blah blah” and hide behind the notion that he prepped it. As if prepping is the ultimate excuse for any solution that they cook up. It worked in a lot of situations, but not this one.

I honestly think Santa has him beat.

It’s about whether he can beat pt-bats and not having an glaring weaknesses.

Even if you choose to dismiss it in your giant walls-of-text, Santa can’t affect non-believers. This is huge, and something you’ve chosen to just dismiss rather than address.

Also, Santa got straight up fucked by a bunch of kids trying to impress Jack Skellington in The Nightmare Before Christmas. This should be evidence enough that he can’t do shit.

…seriously.

P.S.: Muff, try to make your points in 5000 words of less. Jesus.

EDIT: [media=youtube]Yw0aoVpFCDw&NR=1[/media] <-- This guy for top tier? You’re joking!

And Santa doesn’t even escape from that situation by doing anything on his own. Jack and Sally have to come bail his sorry ass out.

i’ve seen santa get owned by depression in fred claus. no weakness allowed at all. And can we cease with the nominations for defensive juggernauts, if the cat in the box and santa are only good for defending or seeing attacks coming they still aren’t beating Bats in a fight.

getting someone onto the tier list isn’t supposed to be easy.

It seems to me the list that Santa uses is one of his weaknesses. He obviously needs it to keep track of everyone’s behavior - notice how he checks it twice - and someone who took that could take away his knowledge of ‘good and bad’

Um, what’s his glaring weakness against PT Batman? You have tried and tired again to say that Santa’s weakness is the people who practice certain religions which don’t believe in him or his holiday. Um, so what? How does that have any outcome on the battle between him and PT Batman?

I already addressed it. I’ll try to keep it brief so you can read it. Santa does not care about non-believers but still records their actions and sleep schedules in case of future Conversions to Christianity or if they begin to celebrate Christmas. Also, once again, your point about non-believers does not apply to the battle between Santa and PT Batman.

I have shown hard evidence of Batman celebrating Christmas and even interacting with Santa. Go look at the links again. You tried to say that Batman can win against Santa if he converted to some other religion, ex. Judaism, but that is clearly a tactic that would fail since Bruce still has to fight Santa in this matchup, even if he’s Jewish during the fight. Secondly (and this is why your point about non-believers is a non-point) anyone, of any religion, who attempts to eliminate Santa becomes a Threat to Christmas. They become a threat to the millions of other adults and children who celebrate Christmas. This is what I have been saying all along, you just refuse to see the pointlessness of your argument. How can Batman convert to Judaism (or whatever religion) and then use that as a tactic to defeat Santa? How can you convert to a religion and then proceed to do physical battle against that which you no longer believe in? It makes no sense.

I am simply arguing using the S.H.I.T’s own rules and you can’t even stay consistent with them yourself. 1. You said that any nominee has to be able to battle PT Batman to a standstill, or out-right beat PT batman. 2. I asked, what if Batman is indifferent to the nominee? You said, a fight still has to take place. 3. I introduced Santa. 4. You claimed that the existence of non-believers was a major weakness for Santa. I showed evidence that Batman is a believer. 5. Since you yourself said that a fight had to take place between the nominee and PT Batman, the weakness of being a non-believer ceases to be a weakness for Santa. Once you start a fight with Santa, Santa exists for you.

And Batman got bent in half by a juiced up meth head. Isn’t that evidence enough that Santa is stronger than Batman since Bane could never “bend” Santa?

LOL! The Nightmare Before Christmas was produced by Tim Burton, the same Tim Burton who directed Batman (1989). So we’re basing the character’s abilities based upon Tim Burton’s interpretation of them? Seriously? You’re digging pretty deep here to come up with a decent argument against Santa, but the thing is, Batman and Santa have been in existence as characters with (well-established abilities) long before Tim Burton got to do his interpretation of them. Is Batman limited to what Tim Burton says he can do?

Again: Stick to your own rules. Stick to the matchup. Prove that Batman doesn’t celebrate Christmas. Try to refute the pics I posted of him celebrating Christmas. Prove that Batman can Prep against Santa given an infinite amount of time. Try to refute my claim that Santa can see Bruce when he is sleeping or awake, or if Bruce is being bad or good.

And Batman has never been shown to be depressed? Batman never needed a pep-talk from Alfred? I’m not saying it should be easy to get on the tier list, but the arguments for why a given character shouldn’t be on it shouldn’t be nonsensical or out-right hypocritical of the S.H.I.T’s own rules and criteria. Anyone can point to an example and say, “Look! See, so-and-so got owned right there!”, but you can do the same thing for Batman.

How are they going to get to the list without him knowing that they’re coming for it? Who is going to trek through the bitter cold to find Santa’s workshop in the North Pole to get the list? Trying to steal the list is a Threat to Christmas. Whoever is trying to steal it won’t succeed.

Nobody tryin to hear Panda over hear B. I tried to drop knowledge but no one is heeding

And I thought Santa would not have anti-pussy though via Mrs. Claus

A character’s wife or girlfriend/lady is only considered a weakness because the S.H.I.T claims that Batman can simply kidnap that person and exploit his opponent’s sentiments for her. Batman getting to Mrs. Clause without Santa knowing about it is a different story. I’d say it’s impossible.

Sooo if I kidnap Oracle, or Vicki Vale PT wouldn’t be affected whatsoever? That doesnt flow imo

You talk a lot of shit, and then you step right in it.

In the interest of brevity, and because it’s getting boring having you just repeat everything we shoot down as if you’re hoping eventually we’ll just give up and put your character on the list, I’m breaking this down to bullets.

-People did notice that Batman was different. People who watched him fight would say “Batman seems different. Less refined, more savage. Relying more on raw strength than finesse.” Take your protip and stick it squarely up your ass.

-Please stop rambling and learn how to fucking read. If Santa knows when everyone is sleeping and awake, or knows when everyone is bad or good, then the word you’re looking for (and the one I used) is “omniscience” or in stupid people terms: The ability to know everything. Omnipresence is the ability to be everywhere at once, which Santa clearly is not, since he lives at the North Pole and (according to you) can travel near the speed of light. Even if he travelled at the speed of light, he still wouldn’t be omnipresent, since light isn’t omnipresent.

-I don’t know where you’re getting this Threat To Christmas shit from, but I’ve never seen Santa do anything remotely violent or go on the offensive against anyone. Maybe in Weird Al’s song “The Night Santa Went Crazy”, but even then he ends up being gunned down by the FBI. Not very top tier.

-Again, I wasn’t paying attention (this is getting pretty repetitive) and typed “tools” instead of “assists”, which would be the correct term to use when Santa is being “assisted” by a bunch of reindeer to travel at the speed of light. Santa himself does not travel this fast, or else he wouldn’t need the reindeer. If Santa could travel at the speed of light, how would he also cause the reindeer to move that fast? Especially considering that mass increases the closer you come to the speed of light, so that the more you were carrying with you, the more mass you would have to support. Doesn’t make even a little sense if Santa could travel at light speed by himself, which he clearly cannot.

-Also, Santa makes toys. Train sets and teddy bears and race cars and rocking horses and all kinds of low-tech garbage. What in any of that do you possibly think he could use as a weapon? When we talk about Batman being able to meet Santa’s level of tech, I have no doubt that this is true, since Batman almost certainly knows how to carve wood.

-Also, there’s the fact that Santa is completely made up, and all of the feats attributed to Santa are actually accomplished by parents and then lied about to children. But since the rest of the list is composed of fictional characters as well (especially that “God” guy), I’ll let this one slip. Even though I shouldn’t, because none of the other characters let someone else do their job and then take credit for it.

-The final nail in Santa’s coffin: The plot to The Santa Clause. Santa gets startled by Tim Allen (if he really knew everything everyone was doing, he would have known he was coming up behind him), loses his power, and everything is done by the reindeer and an amateur.

"Scott Calvin (Tim Allen) is a divorced father and advertising executive with a young son, Charlie (Eric Lloyd). On Christmas Eve, Charlie comes over to spend the night with Scott before going back to his mother’s for Christmas Day. Scott attempts to assure Charlie of Santa Claus’ existence, while in full disbelief himself, that is until the movie progresses. That night, they are awakened by a clatter on the roof. Going outside to investigate, Scott can see someone on the roof. He yells at the trespasser, which causes the man to lose his balance and falls off the roof. The trespasser appears to be Santa Claus.

He magically disappears, but his suit remains. They find a business card in a pocket stating that if something should happen to him, someone should put on the suit, and the reindeer will know what to do. They find a sleigh and eight reindeer perched atop the house. Scott puts on the Santa suit to please Charlie, and begins delivering toys from rooftop to rooftop."

The reindeer are the real heroes, not Santa. He’s just a dude with a magic suit that makes you fat. And he’s not immortal, as it appears that when one Santa dies, someone else just puts on the fat suit and takes over.

I’m done arguing about Santa. If y’all want to put it to a vote, let’s do it. I vote no.