What is the next usable thing?
Nah, sleep is also listed as one of those random factors that are too good, because your pokemon is completely incapacitated. That’s why a sleep clause exists.
Without these arbitrary(and yes I agree that they are arbitrary) rules, then pokemon sucks as a competitive game.
Getting rid of all the random in the game prevents the game from being pokemon. Balance is really fucking boring. Getting rid of evasion makes the game better on a competitive front.
If a sizeable majority of moves did increased damage to users of evasion moves, it would be worth considering bring back imo.
Until gamefreak balances their game, it needs to be done for them lol.
Alright Po (and anyone else interested), if you can prove to me that people would actually like an evasion centered meta game and that it would do well, and if everyone agrees, I’ll unban it (and keep in mind I’m not taking any Smogon excuses. We all got our problems with them, but if you think something should be unbanned just because Smogon banned it I am shooting it down I want to hear actual arguments, not everyone runs cookie cutter sets and can’t think.) But not today. It is Christmas.
Also I fixed the banned mon list a bit and added a test list (and moved MegaKhan to it.) Might as well do this proper.
Things you can do that have other applications than just beating Evasion: Hone Claws, Coil, Taunt, Whirlwind, Roar, Snatch, Psych Up, Topsy Turvy, Defog, Haze, Clear Smog, Foresight, Odor Sleuth, Miracle Eye, Gravity, Sweet Scent, Telekinesis, Lock-On, Mind Reader, Imprison, Keen Eye, No Guard, OHKOs remain at their same 30% accuracy regardless of Evasion stage.
Honorable mention to Minimize-only counters: Dragon Rush, Stomp, Steamroller, Body Slam, Phantom Force, Flying Press… they all gain double power and never miss against a Minimized foe.
Things you can do that have other applications than just removing/reflecting/preventing Stealth Rock: Taunt, Rapid Spin, Defog, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, Imprison.
Now which one has more solutions?
Rocks, Weather (well Not so much in Gen 6 but auto weather is still silly), Megas off the top of my head. Granted I never said Evasion was balanced rather it’s in there to give kids a chance to beat teams…Nintendo/Gamnefreak probably doesn’t factor in that top players set up their own rules over say the VGC rules when making new pkmn and moves. WHat somewhat balances evasion is you’re giving up a moveslot for something that only gives you a chance to completely miss an attack. If the game got more perfect accuracy moves with stronger base damage then evasion would then be balanced.
Nobody’s going to agree to this. I’m already wearing myself down repeating the same thing I’ve been saying since these games came out and either no one listens and keeps repeating the same outdated talking points(“luck” is not a valid reason in a game with random damage and criticals, it makes you look hypocritical when you say that), or they see the words Po and Evasion and go, “Not this shit again” and run right out of the thread. Sorry for that, but somebody has to be the guy that points this shit out
I’d also suggest you don’t really need more stronger base power perfect accuracy moves(although they wouldn’t hurt), when you have Swords Dance/DD/etc. and abilities like Adaptability/Tough Claws/Aerilate/Pixilate plus the terrain moves boosting power of certain moves.
Plus, unlike Stealth Rock which is guaranteed damage, Evasion is giving up a moveslot for a CHANCE at not being hit… I think the Evasion user is taking far more risk than even an opponent who just blindly swings away hoping to hit.
it will take 4 hone claws to even match the evasion boosts of 2 double teams, so you have to take twice as many turns using hone claws just to hit the opponent reliably, that’s great
same for coil
taunt, whirlwind, and roar are all good but they are poorly distributed and a lot of mons who learn them aren’t usually bulky enough to use them (for example, jolteon can use roar, but why the fuck would you wanna go last with jolteon’s frail ass), taunt only stops them once you send in a taunt user, it doesn’t eliminate evasion (they’ll most likely be at +2 evasion)
psych up just copies the boost and makes the game really fucking dumb at that point, it doesn’t remove evasion
topsy turvy doesn’t have perfect accuracy and can miss, while good, does nothing to help the case, i also think it’s only learned by 1 pokemon
defog, like hone claws, needs to be used twice as much as double team to be on equal grounds
haze and clear smog are very poorly distributed and are a waste of a slot usually, it’s better to force a switch than to remove the boosts as the pokemon is probably still deadly without the evasion
foresight, odor sleuth, and miracle eye are 2 turn moves (use the move then attack), so basically, if you do such a move, the opponent switches out into a counter of your poke and you accomplished…nothing, good job
gravity only slows down the evasion boosting, doesn’t solve it
sweet scent would be useful, but it still doesn’t stop the problem, it can force a switch and at that point…you accomplished nothing since you’ll have to switch out as well
telekinesis, mind reader, and lock-on are the same as foresight, 2 turn moves that basically accomplish…nothing
imprison is a terrible move, dont’ even bring it up
keen eye is a shitty ability, and it still doesn’t solve the problem
no guard works but the only pokemon that learn it are machamp, doublade, and golurk, really limited and only machamp takes advantage of it (the others actually hurt by it)
OHKOs are stupid moves and ruin countering, don’t discuss them in this, they are a different beast
those moves that beat minimize, what good are they in any other situation?
let’s compare these to the hazard stoppers
defog pretty much guarantees hazards are gone, opponent must have a faster taunt than your defog or just straight KO your poke before it can use defog, a very reliable option, this also removes light screen and reflect from the field
rapid spin is only stopped by ghost pokemon and protect-like moves, along with being straight up KO’d, very reliable way of removing hazards, this also removes leech seed
magic bounce basically means the opponent cannot set up any hazards or status moves until the magic bouncer is KO’d, most reliable method
magic coat is magic bounce but as an attack, not very useful on anyone that isn’t sableye
taunt does more than stop hazards, it’s as reliable as it is for stopping evasion, but not an end all solution
like i said before, imprison is a terrible move and should never be used
now, compared to evasion stopping moves, these are way more reliable at stopping hazards than anything you run to stop evasion, let alone, the best options to stop it don’t hinder your team building at all, the only options that stop evasion that are reliable are taunt and defog
evasion is stupid, causes headaches and a lot of centralization, and really should not be allowed in competitive play
also, in competitive scenes, we try to remove as much luck as possible, evasion increases the luck factor to favor the evasion booster greatly, you cannot compare this to moves with low accuracy
a pokemon using a low accuracy move knows the risk in using such a move but the luck is enforced on both pokemon, there’s a negative factor for the user and a positive factor for the opponent
there is no risk in using evasion, you’re only benefiting yourself, forcing your opponent into a bad situation no matter what and unless he carries a move that can stop evasion, he’s fucked, the user only gets positive factors while the opponent only gets negative, unlike a low accuracy move which has positive and negative factors for both pokemon
who cares if you lose coverage when using evasion, after 2 uses, it’s not like the opponent can hit you unless he carries an evasion beating move, limiting team creation, unlike SR where you could literally make a team who doesn’t give a fuck and not get swept by everything under the sun
and before anyone says moody, there are no reliable options to beat moody and if the moody poke gets evasion early on, well…it’s game over pretty much (especially against smeargle, who can guarantee 3 boosts before passing it off with spore/protect/baton pass/ingrain and a focus sash)
With this kind of creativity why can’t someone make a pokemon ARPG =/
PokeBank has come, crashed Nintendo servers, and gone.
Oh, and Entei got Sacred Fire.
Due to PokeBank breaking the bank and being postponed, the Rotation Tournament will start two days earlier on the 28th. I’ll go over the rules before then. After that we’ll be having a slightly special singles tournament Mid-January.
Okay, I took Christmas Day off to let people enjoy themselves… Now its back to debunking some of the crap flying around about my list of counters/checks to Evasion.
Now I, Po Pimpus, the worst Pokémon player of all time will show you how to use these so-called “shitty moves/abilities” since some of you have a hard time thinking in abstract and how to beat things without “numbers” and “calculations.”
WARNING… LONG ASS POST IN SPOILERS!***
[details=Spoiler]**
Hone Claws/Coil**- Gives you +1 to Attack and Accuracy(+1 to Defense for Coil users). Not reliable, but more Attack is always welcomed for KOing Stall-type Evasion abusers. The increase to accuracy means you won’t miss as often, and put pressure on the opponent to do more than just spam DT, for when you do score a hit, it will hurt them badly. The defense boosts of Coil make you a bane of Physical attackers. Has just as much PP as DT(more for Coil), so if you get into a standoff, you will win out in the end with your boosted attack.
**
Taunt/Whirlwind/Roar**- Never miss and force the opponent (and all their boosts) out. Probably the best counters to stat uppers in general. Typically used by bulky defensive types, these are good on frail mons who force a lot of switches(like Jolteon) who can catch switch heavy teams off-guard.
Psych Up- Allows you to copy the opponent’s stat changes. Perfect for giving the opponent a taste of their own medicine. I suggest using this in conjunction with a never-miss move, otherwise you’re going to be having flashbacks of Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet from Gen III.
**
Topsy-Turvy**- Will reverse the opponent’s stat changes. Change that +6 Evasion(I hope you’re not dumb enough to let someone get +6 any stat on you) to -6 and lol all the way to the bank. Doesn’t have perfect accuracy, however, and is only learned by one mon(who conveniently learns Psych Up/Aerial Ace as well).
**
Defog**- A move that will be everywhere soon. Lowers Evasion one stage and removes hazards and screens as well. Has just as many PP as Double Team does, so you win out in a standoff.
**
Haze/Clear Smog**- Completely removes all stat changes on both sides. Clear Smog has the added benefit of being a damaging move so you score damage and remove changes. Is Poison-typed, however, so doesn’t work on Steel type mons. Also has limited distribution, but the best user is probably Chandelure, who gives no fucks about a Steel type. Haze will work on anything, and has a bigger learn base.
**
Foresight/Odor Sleuth/Miracle Eye**- Completely resets Evasion to 0, regardless of number of boosts. Also Foresight and Odor Sleuth make Ghosts susceptible to Normal and Fighting attacks, whereas Miracle Eye removes Dark’s immunity to Psychic. Usually the foe will switch, so Mission Accomplished. You now know they have an Evasion user and can plan accordingly for the next time it comes in
**
Gravity**- Lowers opponent’s Evasion two stages, negating two Double Teams and one Minimize, which should be all they get if you know how to play. Also makes High Jump Kick, Bounce, and Sky Drop unusable, and removes the Flying Type and Levitate Ground immunity.
Sweet Scent- Lowers opponent’s Evasion two stages and has more PP than both Minimize and DT, meaning you win in a Mexican Standoff. Yay Grass and Bug types(and Mawile, lol)!
**
Telekinesis/Mind Reader/Lock-On**- Ensures your next attack will hit, regardless of Evasion level. Telekinesis makes the foe immune to Ground attacks. Lock-On and Mind Reader can be Baton Passed, so shenanigans can be had if you’re clever.
Imprison- Prevents the opponent from using moves you know. Can’t DT if your move is locked, now can you? Bonus points for shutting down Substitutes and other common moves.
Keen Eye- Ability that ignores Evasion boosting. It’s called a shitty ability, but that’s because no one uses Evasion. Drapion will fuck an Evasion booster up.
No Guard- Ability that makes all attacks hit both user and opponent. Machamp, Golurk and Doublade usage would skyrocket. I don’t see how this is bad.
OHKOs- Always a set 30% chance to hit, unless combined with No Guard or Lock-On/Mind Reader. Not a reliable method for beating Evasion spamming, but they are a last ditch effort.
Dragon Rush/Phantom Force/Flying Press/Stomp/Steamroller/Body Slam- All gain doubled power and never miss on a Minimized foe. D-Rush/Stomp/Steamroller all have increased Flinch chance. Body Slam can Paralyze. Flying Press does Flying and Fighting type damage, so the dreaded Minimize Blissey/Chansey is fucked. Phantom Force allows you to ignore damage for a turn and will hit through Protect/Detect. Sound like useful moves to me.
Taunt- Forces the foe to use only attack moves for three turns. Good for stopping stall type Evasion spamming and set-up in general. A really useful move that more people should take advantage of.[/details]
my comments in italics
seriously, evasion is in no way balanced, just because there are a lot of options doesn’t mean there are good options, how do you stop a DTing skarmory holding brightpowder when after 1 boost, fire blast has like…40% accuracy, you’re going to hone claws your way to victory?
it’s a double edged sword, while you say these moves can stop evasion, do remember that the opponent does have access to all these options to, what evasion does is create an incredibly unfair advantage to the booster, forcing you to run very unconventional things just to stop it that would otherwise be useless in any other situation. it creates way too much overcentralization and imbalance that it’s not worth it to just try and allow it. the metagame is far better and more fun without it than it is with it. and besides, everyone hates it when the battle maison pokes use double team, why bring it to competitive battling.
I’m convinced Mood4food is a computer program designed to kill me by making me shake my head so much it swivels off my neck…
No one is this obtuse. It’s like I have to rewire his brain to think for himself instead of parrot what that other place tells him.
I’ll wait for someone else to post before I attempt to rebuff the rebuttal to my rebuttal… ARRRGH! MY BRAIN HURTS FROM ALL THIS THINKING FOR OTHERS!
jeezus christ with the personal insults, am i the only person who doesn’t do this? seriously, is this even necessary in an argument?
i’m doing this on my own personal experience, i’m not even going by smogon or whatever, this is me (seriously, smogon doesn’t have a clue how to properly run stall)
you’re suggesting a playstyle that has been tested to death and back and has always been deemed shitty for the metagame, the options that can be used to beat it are very unreliable, very poorly distributed, and/or just suck in general (i’m looking at you imprison), there is no way for evasion can be balanced unless every pokemon gets aura sphere and scrappy as options (which, if you need to be reminded, is incredibly overcentralizing)
Stop bringing up that you’re being personally attacked. You know why you’re getting shit?
There’s your answer. Suck it up and stop bringing up how you’re being attacked.
i…don’t even know how that makes sense, like what does that prove as i’m usually yelled at for supposedly sucking smogon’s dick and now you’re yelling at me using my own experiences
i dont’ get it
It seems like you guys are having a pretty serious conversation and that’s cool, and all… But Diggersby, tho?!
diggersby is pretty damn good, it’s slightly stronger and a ton faster than azumarill (althought it’s speed isn’t that great at base 76 (i think it’s that), having access to u-turn makes it a great scout and it’s deadly using either a choice scarf or a choice band, but it’s bulk isn’t exactly…good (it’s typing also doesn’t do it justice in helping the lack of bulk), it’s really not used that much because of azumarill but it’s still pretty damn good and has a pretty mean wallop
Welp, it’s just what Entei needed. He’ll get a tier boost, but he is anything but the end all be all of Fire Pokemon. 100 base speed isn’t that impressive for fire types at all.
It’s just a little better than that time that Typholsion got Eruption.
Diggersby makes me rage because he turned out good despite originally being a joke, I took 86% from a motherfucking boosted quick attack.
He makes me so mad.
I’d be mad too if I got bodied by a Pokemon that looks like it’s been digging through piles of shit and possibly eating said shit too. That Pokemon is so fucking ugly.