SRK Competitive Pokemon Battling Thread: Logoghoul and White Shadow Win! Bye Gen 6!

Welcome to the place to be if you like animal fighting Pokémon battles! Here we’ll battle to see who’s the true PokeMaster and also converse about the competitive aspects of Pokemon.

You haven’t battled (or even played a Pokémon game) in a while? Maybe not even since Red and Blue? No worries! With the introduction of the brand new Fairy type, Mega-Evolutions, Super Training, and many balance changes, this Gen is a nice place to start off fresh!

Types:
A Pokemon’s typing dictates what it’s weak against and also that moves it has STAB (Same Type Attribute Bonus) on. STAB basically means that a move that is the same type as the Pokemon using it will do greater damage than if was used by another Pokemon with a different type (A Charizard using Fire Blast will do more damage than a Snorlax using it due to Charizard having fire typing.)

Defensively, different types have different weaknesses to different moves. Our Charizard, for example, will take four times regular damage from any rock attack doe to both of its types (Fire and Flying) being weak to Rock-Type attacks.

Type Chart for Gen 6: [details=Spoiler]

[/details]

Battling:

Pokémon Battling is a bit more complicated than just sending in your Charizard and hitting Blast Burn. There are a variety of moves, tactics, items, and mechanics you’ll need to study up on in order to be the best. Before you get started on your team, take some time to learn about EV’s.

Nice Guide by Saitsu: [details=Spoiler]Alright, this will be a long and wordy post so bear with me because this will get confusing.

Effort Values:

To first explain Effort Values, I’ll first explain a bit more on Pokemon Stats. As we’ve already covered, base stats form the basis and essence on the strength of a Pokemon. As some of you may have asked, what does this make the stats you see in game? Well they’re what the base stats turn into after leveling and such. While Base Stats are how you compare Pokemon initially (for example, 125 Base Attack is always better than 115 Base Attack) the final stats are also very important as that will ultimately determine Pokemon strength.

Now the question becomes, can Pokemon with the same base stats have different end stats? The answer is yes. And that’s where Effort Values (and Individual Values but that’s later) come in. Also, in learning this you’ll understand why Pokemon in essence become weaker when leveling up using Rare Candies.

When a Pokemon defeats an enemy Pokemon, you gain experience (this you know). However, you also gain something else. When you defeat certain Pokemon, you also gain a certain amount of points to one of your 6 stats. For example, defeating a Bulbasaur will grant you one point towards Special Attack. That point is an Effort Value. Four EVs (four points) towards one stat will equal one legitimate point in that stat. So say your Pokemon has an end stat of 300. If it gained four EVs towards HP, its end stat will now be 301.

So essentially, Effort Values are a way to customize your Pokemon to your preference. Though usually, EV’s will be used to boost your best stats. Now, there are a few rules to keep in mind for EV’s.

  1. The maximum amount of EV’s a Pokemon is allowed to gain is 510.
  2. The Maximum Amount of EV’s a Pokemon is allowed in one stat is 255.
  3. As it’s already been said, 4 EV’s = 1 Stat Point.

So here’s where we use a little math. If you haven’t noticed, in the end if you divide 510 by 4, you’re left with a remainder of 2 worthless EV’s. Nothing can be done about that, sorry. Also, the maximum amount of EV’s you can use for one stat in reality is 252. Going all the way to 255 would actually waste 3 EV’s. So in the end, here’s what will happen. You are allowed to max 2 stats, and add an extra Stat point to a third. Or you can spread them out.

Now, to use more math, a full 252 EV’s in one stat will add up to 63 Stat Points in the end. So let’s bring up that Health value again. If a Pokemon’s end stat in HP is 300, if you max out the HP EV’s, the end stat will now become 363. A very big increase. And now you see the importance.

And this is why Pokemon who use Rare Candies to level up become weaker. Because they’re leveling up without as much battling experience and thus less Effort Values gained and thus weaker stats. Cultivating EV’s is a painstaking task, only really accomplished by breeding Pokes and starting from Level 1 and on top of that, you can’t visibly see the Evs. Until Gen 6 where now we’ll have visible Evs and EV training.

As for what EV’s mean for you? It’s used again, to customize your pokemon. Usually, this will be done by maxing out your stats of preference and usually your best stats. Since Mienshao is the current topic, we’ll use him. Mienshao’s top two stats are Attack and Speed. Those are the stats you tend to want to increase in order to get maximum efficiency out of it to allow it to hit as hard as possible and move as quickly as possible. As for what to do with the last 4 EV’s that aren’t used on Attack and Speed? Up to you. I’d say Special Attack if you want coverage or Special Defense if you want to focus on Hi-Jump Kick and U-Turn but we’ll get to that later. But this is how Mienshao’s with those EV’s are written.

252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe

It goes in order of where the stats are (HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe). The numbers show the amount of EV’s used. And thus Mienshao will get a 63 point boost to Attack and Speed and a 1 Point boost to Special Defense. That should be a good run down on Effort Values.

Individual Values:

Alright, IV’s are a lot more annoying to explain, and yet aren’t nearly as important (or manageable) as IV’s unless you want to use Hidden Power. But let’s get this over with.

Individual Values have an easier explanation and summation than EV’s. In essence, they are genes. Like the genes for humans change different things like Eye Color and skin pigmentation, the Genes or IV’s of Pokemon change…well, stats as well and can also increase them like Effort Values.

UNLIKE Effort Values however…you cannot really change them directly. Like Genes, IV’s are given to a Pokemon when they are born and due to that…are the most absolutely frustrating thing to manage in this game, especially due to the fact that like EV’s, until Gen 6 there’s no visible way to truly manage it. The best you can do is in Gen 5 where there’s an NPC that will give you a rough estimate on how you’re doing. But let’s explain in a bit more detail without hopefully destroying your brain.

Each stat (except HP) has an IV rating from 0-31 and each Pokemon when born can range anywhere in that number. A Pokemon that’s said to have Perfect IV’s have 31s in each stat. In short, you want to get each IV as close to 31 as you can get as it will increase the stat the higher the number is (I don’t know the exact formula and it isn’t as important). As it was said by other people, unless you’re using Battle Simulators (until Gen 6), it’s not worth the hassle to try and breed for Perfect IV’s as it will take forever and is a crapshoot. The best you can do is try and breed to max out your Speed IV (again the Gen 5 NPC will help you check). However…this changes when we come to Hidden Power.

Hidden Power is a Special Attack type move that is always 60 BP but varies in Typing. The IV’s of your Pokemon determine the typing. Why is this important? Because some pokemon, Mienshao potentially included, can use the Type Coverage Hidden Power brings to cover weakness. For example, I’ll use one of my personal favorite Pokemon, Lucario.

I prefer to use a Special Attack based Lucario (the Physical Attack Lucario has no such issues). Now Lucario is a Fighting/Steel Type Pokemon, so Flying and Ground type Pokemon are an issue. The usual set run for Lucario, at least his first 3 moves, are Nasty Plot (to boost SpA for sweeping), Aura Sphere (90 Base Power, never miss Fighting Special Move) and Dark Pulse (80 BP, Dark Special). As you can see, no coverage for the two weaknesses I mentioned. And if you go to look up Lucario’s movepool, he does not learn an Ice Special Attack at all (Phyical Lucario has Ice Punch). That’s where Hidden Power comes in. You can make Hidden Power an Ice Type Move thus granting Lucario that crucial coverage needed to take down those Ground and Flying type threats (along with Dragons).

But again, it’s best to not go too deep into how to legitimately generate IV’s as it’s extremely frustrating. Battle Simulators will allow you to play with the IV’s set to your preferences (and thus Hidden Power) and hopefully, Gen 6 will remedy the situation as promised. But at most, do try to breed Pokemon with Perfect IV’s in Speed so all your Pokemon will be at max Speed which is always good (with one or two exceptions due to how certain moves work).

Natures:

I had almost forgotten to add this but this is also very important, but thankfully for all involved, a LOT easier to explain than the above two with also much less math (I don’t mind math, but I’m a math major and I know everyone else aren’t fans).

Ever wonder what those things called Natures are? You know, those one word descriptions in game? Bold, Bashful, Quiet, etc? They actually mean a lot more than you think.

Natures are the last thing that determine Pokemon End Stats (except for HP). Again, a lot easier to explain. There are 25 Natures. Each Nature gives One stat a 10% Increase and gives another Stat a 10% decrease. There are also 5 Natures that don’t change a thing (technically they increase and decrease the same stat, thus averaging out to nothing). They also determine what flavors a Pokemon likes and dislikes, but that’s more towards single player stuff.

Anyway, the usage of Natures are to boost the stat you absolutely want to center your Pokemon around the most. For Mienshao, that can be Attack or Speed. But you also have to make a sacrifice in another category, usually one of your worst or the one you’re not using at all. For Mienshao, if you’re not using any Special Attacks, then you can take away from that stat as you’re not using it. For a Mienshao that specializes in Speed but takes away from Special Attack, the Nature you want is Jolly.

Now Natures are also decided by Breeding but are manageable and of course, visible so a lot easier to have done. That you can research later, it’s pretty simple. So this is how the Mienshao can look so far.

Mienshao, M(ale)
Jolly Nature
252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe

And…I’m done…please check for anything off.[/details]

Serebii Guide: http://serebii.net/games/evs.shtml
Easy EV training guide : [details=Spoiler] http://youtu.be/kR6uzfwcNjY [/details]
Best EV Training locations: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/super-super-x-y-ev-training.3490270/

Sounds complicated? Don’t worry! X and Y introduced Super Training, which is a nice alternative to constantly battling to train a Pokémon!

Mega-Evolution:
Mega Evolutions were introduced in XY as a new way to battle. In return for giving up your item slot and making your Pokemon hold the appropriate Mega-Stone, you can evolve your Pokemon mid-battle into a stronger form that grants drastically improved stats and (sometimes) type and ability changes!

List of Mega Pokemon and base stats: http://www.serebii.net/xy/megaevolutions.shtml

Rules:

Wi-Fi Standard battles:

[details=Spoiler]Banned Pokemon:

Mewtwo
Lugia
Ho-oh
Blaziken (With Speed Boost)
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina (both forms)
Darkrai
Shaymin S
Arceus
Reshiram
Zekrom
Kyurem W
Genesect
Xerneas
Yveltal
Genesect
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Mawilite
Blazikenite
Salamentite
Lucarionite

Clauses:
The item Soul Dew is banned.
Evasion boosting Items and moves (besides Double Team) are banned.
Sleep (You may only put one of your opponents to sleep at a time)
OHKO (Moves that are one-hit kills like Fissure and Sheer Cold are not allowed)
Moody (The ability Moody may not be on any of your pokemon)
Same Dex # (You may not have two of the same pokemon on the same team.)
[/details]

Simulators: I have no control over that. Sorry!

If a tournament is held I will make sure to announce any rules ahead of time.

Remember, do your best and you’ll have no regrets*!

*Don’t quote me on that

Friend Code List:

Bious - 2020-0066-5748
Phantom Angel - 2981-6233-6740
Po Pimpus (Mood’s Bitch) - 3153-4603-105
Ninjanuity - 5300-8534-5872
Eren - 0361-6582-6538
locoghoul- 3239-3711-4829
drean- 4399-1358-3434

Showdown IDs:

locoghoul- locoghoul

E4 Progress

[details=Spoiler]
locoghoul- 0
The Damned- 0
KaboXx- 0
RadicalFuzz- 0 [/details]

Current Tournament Brackets:

Pokemon League
Break

Future Tournaments:

Wi-Fi: ???
Showdown: ???

Tournament History:

Wi-Fi
First Tournament Singles winner: tolore
Second Tournament Rotations winner: Co-Jones
Third Tournament No Mega Single Winner: r00ster22
Fourth Singles Winner: r00ster22
Fifth Itemless Winner: locoghoul

Online
First Shodown Singles Winner: r00ster22
Second Showdown Ubers Winner: locoghoul

Grudge Matches

Mood vs Po: Mood wins. Twice.

Community Made Teams:

r00ster’s team (WIP):

[details=Spoiler]http://pastebin.com/y7k3EXLk
[/details]

Wi-Fi Elite Four:
???

** THE CHAMPION OF WI-FI**

???

Showdown Elite Four:
???

** THE CHAMPION OF SHOWDOWN**

???

Rules for Gyms:

SRK Pokemon League Rules

Spoiler

General Rules for Both Gym Leaders and Elite Four

  1. All Pokemon on a gym leader’s or Elite Four member’s team must have at least one type in common.
    a. If the Pokemon is a dual type, then that Pokemon is allowed on either monotype that one of its types fall into.
  2. Come up with at least 9 different Pokemon of said type.
  3. Use of most Mega Evolutions are allowed.
    a. The Pokemon must originally have a type in common with its monotype teammates before it mega evolves. (E.g. A dragon type gym cannot use Mega Charizard X or Mega Ampharos, but the Electric Type can use Mega Ampharos.)
    b. The pokemon must stay your monotype after it mega evolves as well. At present, this only affects Mega Charizard X (cannot be used on a mono-Flying team), Mega Gyarados (cannot be used on a mono-Flying team) and Mega Aggron (cannot be used on a mono-Rock team).
    c. Mega Mewtwo X & Y, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar, Mega Blaziken and Mega Lucario are banned.
  4. Non-Uber legends are allowed; Uber legends are banned.
    a. Duo/Trio legendary pokemon are allowed.
    i. Such as the Legendary Birds, Hounds, Genies, Musketeers, Golems (including Regigigas), the Lake Guardians, etc. (Or should we disallow Keldeo and the Genies?)
    b. Banned pokemon are thus: Arceus-, Mewtwo, Giratina-, Deoxys-*, Xerneas, Yveltal, Ho-oh, Lugia, Darkai, Shaymin-Sky, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Reshiram, Zekrom, Genesect, Kyurem-White and Kyurem-Black.
    i. Blaze Blaziken is allowed; Speed Boost Blaziken is banned; Speed Boost is allowed on pokemon other than Blaziken.
    ii. The regular version of Kyurem is allowed.
    iii. Zygarde is allowed despite its ability only having any effect on Xerneas’s and Yveltal’s abilities.
  5. Pixie Legends are allowed.
    6. A team must have at least one non-legendary, non-Mega pokemon.
    7. Any item can be used except for Gems that are not Normal Gem as they are still unreleased, Brightpowder, Mewtwonite X, Mewtwonite Y, Kangaskhanite, Gengarite, Blazikenite and Lucarionite.
    8. Species Clause is in effect, a.k.a. pokemon with the same ID# may not be used on the same team, even if they have different names or forms. E.g. An Electric gym or Elite Four member may only use one form of Rotom per team, including base Rotom, as Rotom, Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Mow, Rotom-Fan and Rotom-Frost are all #479.
    9. Evasion Clause is in effect, a.k.a. pokemon may neither know nor use any move nor ability that exists solely to increase the user’s evasion, such as Double Team or Minimize or Sand Veil or Snow Cloak.
    a. Acupressure is the exception and is thus allowed. [Or is it?]
    b. Moves that lower the accuracy of the opponent are allowed.
    10. Endless Battle Clause is in effect, a.k.a. no player may attempt to enforce a set of conditions that would theoretically cause a battle to never end, such as using Leppa Berry with Recycle, Heal Pulse and other moves.
    11. OHKO Clause in effect, a.k.a. pokemon may neither know nor use Guillotine, Fissure or Sheer Cold.
    12. Sleep Clause is in effect, a.k.a. only one pokemon on team may be inflicted with Sleep at at time by the opponent. Pokemon that are asleep by means of the move Rest are not counted towards this restriction.
  6. The ability “Moody” is banned.
  7. Abilities that are still not released on certain pokemon, such as Rock Head on Tyrantum or Adaptability on Dragalage, are banned.

Gym Leaders:
(This is WiFi Specific) You must enter the Team Preview with 6 Pokemon, but will have a restriction on the maximum # of Pokemon to enter the battle with. (Specifics will be discussed in the thread).
(WiFi Specific) The battle theme used for your match must either be the Gym Battle Theme/Rival Theme/Team Flare Theme.
(Showdown Specific) You will conduct your battles on the Custom Game option of the Pokemon Showdown simulator (How to set it such that you cannot use all of your team in battle is unknown to me.) [Is anyone even sure that you can at present?]
o If there’s no way to limit the # of Pokemon to use in battle, then you will be allowed to play 6v6
• You can set a limit on the Pokemon to be used in battle (either for you or both parties)
o Such as 3v3, 4v4, 5v5 (The max available to use), or 6v5. [6v5? Not 6v6?
o The Minimum Limit of usable Pokemon is 3.
o The Maximum Limit of usable Pokemon is 5. [And not 6 because…?]
• Record your victory vs the Challenger and post it in the thread.

Elite Four:
• All battles will be conducted in a 6v6 format
You may use a team with no non-legendary, non-Mega pokemon.
(WiFi Specific) The Battle Theme is Recommended to use the Elite Four, but any theme can be used here.
• Record your victory vs the challenger and post it in the thread.
• In the event that you defeat the challenger, and the challenger wishes to challenge you first in a rematch, you can swap places with a fellow member if they oblige.

Challenger:
• Evasion Clause is in effect.
• Endless Battle Clause is in effect.
• Moody is banned.
• Species Clause is in effect.
• OHKO clause is in effect.
• Sleep Clause is in effect.
• You may have up to 9 Pokemon. You must PM @Bious a list of the 9 Pokemon you are going to use.
• You must record all of your victories vs Gyms and Elite Four on either Showdown or WiFi (whichever you’re challenging) and then post your victories in a spoiler in the thread.
• The use of Non-Uber Legendary Pokemon is allowed but cannot comprise more than 1/3 of your team.
o If you use 6, then no more than 2, if 4, then no more than 1, etc…
(WiFi Specific) The Battle Theme vs Gym Leaders must be the Gym Leader Theme; The Theme vs The Elite Four must the The Elite Four Theme.
• If the Gym Leader specifies a team limit, then you must abide to the limit.
o The Gym Leader cannot use more Pokemon than you could.
• Any item is allowed to be used (unless it’s a banned mega-evolution stone or banned Gem or Brightpowder).
• You must use the exact same team if you won vs the previous gym.
o You are only allowed to switch Pokemon around if you lose a battle.
• You have a 3 strike rule vs the Gyms.
o If you lose the 4th time, you must begin your challenge all over.
o When you beat your 4th and 8th Gym your losses are wiped clear.
VS ELITE FOUR SPECIFIC
o You are locked into the team you begin your Challenge vs the Elite Four until you lose the challenge
o You are locked into your Pokemon’s moveset that you begin your Challenge vs the Elite Four.
o You are locked into the items held for your Pokemon throughout your challenge.
o You must use the same lead Pokemon in every match until you lose.
o If you lose to any member of the Elite Four, you must start over from the 1st member of the Elite Four.
o If you lose to the Elite Four three times your challenge shall end.
o You can challenge the Elite Four in whatever order you decide (You must post it in the thread)

Rule changes are subject to change prior to the 1st challenge!

[/quote]

Banned Gym Mons:

Spoiler

Mewtwo
Lugia
Ho-oh
Blaziken (With Speed Boost)
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina (both forms)
Darkrai
Shaymin S
Arceus
Reshiram
Zekrom
Kyurem W
Genesect
Xerneas
Yveltal
Genesect
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Blazikenite

Thanks to @"The Damned"‌ for typing all that.

Elaborate please? This means there has to be a legitimate reason to ban things, right?

That, and we won’t be having OU/Uber/NU battles, no item clauses, sleep clauses, etc… It’s open season on everything.

Right now since everything is new and shiny I’m not up for banning anything until a new standard starts to form. I’m sure we all know the legendaries that will be out down the road, but anything else I want to have a consensus on.

Eh…maybe Sleep Clauses (outside of Meloetta for obvious reasons). We don’t need Breloom Sporing teams to death.

Other than that and Evasion, it’s open season.

I also forgot to mention, but I have no say on what goes on in battle simulators.

I think Evasion Clause might need to be investigated, because Evasion got nerfed pretty good- Keen Eye mons ignore evasion modifiers now, Roar/Whirlwind never miss now, Sweet Scent/Odor Sleuth/Miracle Eye/Foresight are in nearly everyone’s learnset now, and Topsy-Turvy will fuck over a Double Team/Minimize spammer pretty badly.

Sleep Clause I’m indifferent on, but playing Devil’s Advocate, I’d say there are more ways to deal with Sleep now beyond Insomnia/Sleep Talk/Snore, such as the new item Safety Goggles that protects from Powder Moves and Weather effects/Overcoat protecting from Powder Attacks, and of course Grass types now being immune to Spore.
However, that still leaves Dark Void/Hypnosis/Yawn/Sing/Grasswhistle, but outside of Dark Void, they all have shitty accuracy anyway.

Those are just my thoughts… I’ll play on whatever universal ruleset the majority all agrees on, but I don’t think we should be too quick in banning/clausing anything until its been thoroughly investigated and decided upon by the majority.

The thing is that Evasion would be too centralizing. Everyone that doesn’t have Double Team/Minimize will need a move to neutralize DT/Minimize. We need to avoid straight centralizing like that. Even Stealth Rock isn’t that centralizing.

Sleep Clause, my only issue is with Spore (and technically Dark Void). That’s it. If everything had Sing accuracy then I wouldn’t care. But Spore, if you don’t have a Grass Type on your team and Breloom gets a Spore off, without the clause that’s game.

Should we have a separate rule/group that includes Legendary Pokemon and one that doesn’t?

I kinda like the idea of open season, and as Saitsu put it…

The sleep clause and evasion.

(Although, @Saitsu can you elaborate on the evasion part?)

Well it’s simple. Walls will like to have an Evasion Move because it makes them twice as hard to take down. Sweepers (both of these Poke types I’ll explain in a guide) will like to have one because it means they’re less likely to get Revenge Killed and will allow them to run train more effectively. If you don’t have an Evasion move, then you better have something that can never miss or can get rid of them because you’re relying on luck otherwise. Either way, you’re going into a match with a disadvantage if any of your pokemon don’t have something with Evasion or something that can deal with Evasion.

I feel you, Saitsu. I’m just suggesting we don’t be too hasty with the clauses until things become more clear, lest we wind up like those “other” guys on the internet.

I just treat DT like any other stat up move- much like Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, you either stop the opponent from boosting, or you kill them before they get set up. The problem with Evasion is that it turned things into a crapshoot on whether or not you could hit them due to the lack of tools to stop it. All I’m saying is there are more tools for stopping it along with the other stat boosters than ever before, so we should look deeper at it.

It’s like Items in Smash Bros… The competitive community had them banned for so long, they forgot why they were banned in the first place… Then we Brawl came along and fixed the original problem with items*(the exploding crates/capsules randomly spawning, which could now be turned off)*, they were so used to playing without them that the reasoning basically dwindled down to, “We don’t know how to play any other way, so that’s why they’re banned.”

I really don’t want to turn this into a long debate, so I’ll cut it off here… I don’t even use Evasion as a technique(not even in R/B/Y, I was more of Toxic/Sub/Wrap player), but I don’t like the concept of banning things that have actual counters that work simply because someone would have to change their team a bit.

There’s so much stuff in the game, you will never have counters for everything anyway…

Well Sleep Clause I can relent on, but Evasion I DO remember why it was banned. Even though more counters came out of the woodwork it’s still something that I don’t see being very good for anything.

But fine, we’ll look into it. No reason not to I guess.

Oh, that’s the evasion problem.

I get that. I mostly like the power of sweeping niggas, and these Mega Pokes are gonna make that feeling even more satisfying.

@Saitsu do you have a 3DS? I was just wondering, so I could add you.

Yeah, I have a 3DS. Just no X/Y.

Farfetch’d gonna shine this time around I think

Are you serious? Xerneas alone fucks shit up. You might want to rethink that